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This is a particularly important and I think for a lot of people potentially emotional uh Beanstalk Town Hall or AMA where it really feels like there's a lot of uh negative energy in our community And part of what makes this [Music] uh I mean this is such a hard thing in general after the hack I think it was a a major trauma for a lot of us uh myself included and navigating this community and this project of trying to create a credit based currency uh a trustless scalable one uh in light of that deeply traumatic event um has been really hard Uh it's been hard clearly for a lot of the members of our community Uh I know it's been hard for a lot of contributors Uh and just speaking personally it's been very hard for myself And I think the result of that difficulty and that pain is often we're misfiring And I feel on the receiving end of quite a lot of misfires Um but I also recognize that uh myself have uh misfired quite a bit over the past almost 3 years now since the the exploit And so wanted to take some time to get together and see if we can find some common ground um particularly in light of the recent launch and thus far very successful running of Pinto which is the first ever Beantock fork and is very much a continuation of the Beantock project and the Beantock vision And it feels like in many ways the you know having some opportunity for people that are very upset and uh in many ways rightfully so There's a lot to be upset about uh to just have a space for us to all come and talk and share and see if we can find some common ground So I think the I saw that some people dropped questions and comments in the in the town hall chat and maybe in general Um but first I think it might make the most sense to just open up the floor and welcome anyone up here to come and say their piece and would also just say that anyone of the other contributors that uh feel moved to speak should at any point just come up here and participate Um so the the floor is I'm hearing that uh I guess in the town hall chat people are saying that the settings don't allow people to come up Uh can someone confirm if that's the case and maybe we can try to change the settings People say they can't talk All right give us a second We'll try to fix that Pizza man is suggesting that if people request to speak I can invite you up here Maybe let's try that Feel free to to raise your There we go RL All right Let me see if I can get you up here Hi can you hear me Yes sir GM thank you Um you know I just have one because you know a lot of things have happened um in this protocol but most of it's irrelevant at this point The only question I have now is is there a plan to unwind this protocol since it's clearly been abandoned Uh and if so by what means can you make it right for the F holders that resuscitated this protocol before ultimately getting abandoned Well this is quite a complex topic and appreciate you very much for coming up here and speaking and asking uh your question so respectfully The first thing to say is I think there is an open question as to whether or not the protocol is in fact dead Um this is something that I often speak about with a lot of the former Beantock contributors and current Pendo contributors uh about where a lot of the sentiment is that the protocol is in fact dead And some of us however feel quite differently which is that the protocol continues to run The price is not zero Uh there are holders in the system and generally you know you could argue that it's a zombie and there's nothing happening here But I would argue that the arc of history is long and the bean price is still not at its lowest and we've had extensive to clarify I mean you said that the bean stocks price is not at its lowest Are you referring to the price that it was when it got hanked and it was like zero I mean we have to be we have to be realistic here right I mean are there any developers currently dedicated to Beantock Right Yes or no The answer is no Um how much activity is currently going through Beantock Is there you know a substantial amount of activity The answer is no Um what's happening with the pool right Answer is nothing Um I mean you can say oh you know because it's crypto lives on forever but that's And we both know that Um I mean something should be done to properly unwind this thing It's kind of my whole point I mean you can debate on on a philosophical level if if Beantock is still alive or dead but on a practical level it's dead Um I mean I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on that because I I mean from from where I'm standing it just doesn't sound like you're being realistic about it right Like you could say Beanstrong lives on forever in our hearts like well sure okay but it's not living on forever in reality right I uh I deeply appreciate your sentiment and I see how in many respects it is dead Uh definitely However I also don't necessarily like personally I don't believe that it it is a foregone conclusion that it will remain in this state forever And perhaps that's my own ignorance uh or my own just you know inability to believe that the protocol has failed Uh but to be perfectly honest I really can see a future where one of the you know future implementations of the model call it Pinto has grown tremendously to let's say over a billion dollars and started to repay old beantock holders It is totally within the realm of reason in my opinion for someone to take 10 or 15 million dollars and try to rep the system again And you may say go ahead If you believe that though I mean then why would you if you truly believe that Beantock still had life in it why would you why would you fork to begin with right I mean why why push all the developers and all the resources onto a completely different protocol if you believe truly in your heart that Beantock had a future right Cuz that's what happened right Everyone left The developers switched projects The whole thing all the resources that were in Beantock or that were spent on Beantock ended up benefiting Pinto right I mean it why go through all of that if you truly believe in your heart of hearts that Beantock would still survive and has the potential to go forward Why would all the developers leave the project if that were the case is kind of my whole point right I mean yeah you could you could say like oh yeah you know all of a sudden Bill Gates could stumble upon Beantock's website and put $20 million in and yeah like that's a event that could happen but the likelihood of that happening is almost none So it just makes no sense to me Uh first I want to say thank you for pushing back and I I really am grateful for that and for the opportunity to to have this discussion in public I think first your point is totally legitimate that yeah what are the odds someone is gonna just stumble on beantock and be like yeah I'm going to dump you know millions and millions of dollars into this I think at this point basically zero and in many ways this is exactly why and it's saying like it's worth saying why is that it's because ultimately the debt that was maintained after the exploit was too much and this was something that was talked about quite extensively around the the summer after the hack and before the replant around trying to set the protocol up for the longestterm success possible by trying to honor all of the debt of the protocol even after the hack and that that was sort of stacking all the cards against the protocol But in doing so if the protocol was able to succeed it would be sort of undeniable that this was a really powerful mechanism And unfortunately that strategy did not play out uh as we all hoped where it ended up being too much of an uphill battle and the protocol simply was not able to uh escape the the rut that it fell into after the exploit And so from that perspective go ahead No So so basically what you're saying is you recognize that Beantock is dead right I mean that's really what I'm trying to get us to is that Allow me to continue with what I was saying if you don't mind Sure Sure Thank you Um the circumstance that Beantock currently finds itself in is that it is uh generally unapproachable And the question that we were facing uh maybe a year ago was what to do about it where clearly the protocol had way too much debt and so the obvious next step was to try to come to some collective agreement about restructuring and this ultimately you ask about like why uh fork and why abandon the protocol uh and I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea that the protocol has been abandoned but the the question around uh debt restructuring is quite a complex one where you know even some of the changes of the terms around the barn raise have led to people uh being very upset that they never would have contributed to the fert to the barn raise had they known that the terms would have been uh changed and the when there was a like discussion about restructuring the debt uh there was not a huge amount of support uh for doing so and there was an open you know an open discussion about whether to do that and ultimately it seemed highly highly controversial to restructure the debt by DA vote and the really interesting thing about the circumstance of the protocol is there is A there was and this is the path that Pinto ultimately took Uh there was an opportunity to leave the current protocol in its state and let it persist without imposing any sort of restructuring on anyone Uh particularly given again how controversial the very minor restructuring around the chop rate was um particularly after the fact um where it seemed like the best course of action was to just start the protocol from scratch uh and basically have the opportunity to restructure the debt without also having to impose that restructure on everyone So you know I think it's quite a nuanced solution but the problem that was faced is that the protocol clearly had and still has way too much debt to succeed in its current form and state And there was a need in order to keep the protocol alive to restructure the debt And if that's the starting point then the question was you know should we try to pass a DAO vote and impose this restructuring on everyone which may be very very unattractive to some people Well hold on I I need to address that there I mean you keep using the word restructure which is a a term used in bankruptcy right That's essentially what you're saying is there was a pseudo bankruptcy on the Beantock protocol and that's fine you know the protocol failed and whether you choose to acknowledge it or not doesn't matter You you basically said that it failed Um and and that you needed to restructure right Or bankruptcy Well under that scenario shouldn't the assets of beantock be liquidated and redistributed back to the people who are owed the money right The people who help resuscitate it in the first place the fertilizer holders are the people who who participated in the barn raise they got treated like in all of this Um and at le you know if you're going to unwind or if you're going to if you're going to move on to a different protocol then by all means but you shouldn't just let Beantock persist in its state because its state is just a state of death right I mean I think really what a lot of people are here for or at least speaking on behalf of those that did participate in the barn race um people just want whatever is left in the pool to be distributed fairly back to them because right now it it's just stuck in a pool forever and there is no there's no activity right I mean no one's using beans for anything Um no one in the pod line's going to get repaid ever right Okay And I think you know that as much as anyone else meaning all the people who own pods all of that is a complete financial loss at this point for them Um the only people left with any claim would be whoever holds any beans outside of the pool and the people who own the fertilizer right Um I mean if you want all of this to go away meaning you know you just go on with your new protocol and you know your new community and you know you don't want all that like anger and hatred then you need to find a way to unwind beantock in a fair manner and then just call it a day I I hear you and I think in many respects like there's a lot of truth to what you're saying and at the same time I don't one there's nothing preventing anyone from submitting a proposal to wind down the protocol in whatever manner they see fit And given what you're saying I I would encourage you to submit such a proposal or even just write up what that proposal would look like in the in the discord And I believe that if there is significant interest in such a an action uh you know that could happen Uh however the just speaking for myself personally I one don't really see enough um I don't see a way to return the funds in a way that feels uh in line with the terms of the original barn race And the purchase of the fertilizer was the purchase of debt Allah pods where the value that you were using to purchase the stuff you were you were forfeiting your rights to that value And at this point and this actually I think played out with the change of the chop rate where the stockholders ultimately decided to change the chop rate for stockholders that people were quite uh quite angry about that And where I see this as a problem is ultimately there is a misalignment of incentives where what you're suggesting is the way to you know move forward would be for the fur holders to receive back uh whatever value is left in the protocol But that would require the stockholders to vote to forfeit their claim on the value and return it to FUT holders And it's just hard What value is that Just a quick check I mean you said stockholders have have value What what would that be Well how the either you have No go ahead I appreciate you asking there is uh either liquid bean deposits or LP token deposits that have stock and could withdraw from the protocol immediately and sell and extract value from the pool Uh or you have unripe holders that could chop and remove value from the pool And so they all have currently a claim to that value And it doesn't seem like the way that the incentives are aligned uh that it it seems likely that the stockholders would vote to forfeit their claim to those assets and return them to the f holders But like I said I I would encourage you to write up a proposal that you think would achieve the ends that you believe to be the the best for all parties involved And perhaps there is a way to wind down the protocol but from where I'm sitting it doesn't feel realistic that the stockholders are going to vote to just forfeit their claim on $4 million of value uh and return them to the fur holders And I understand that may be very frustrating I don't know if you had anything else you wanted to say on this front I mean not at the moment Um just that I mean well I guess I would have to research into this a bit more Um I'm not sure who owns all of the or how how the ownership of of stock is distributed at the current moment Um well let me ask you this then just because everyone probably wants to know this anyway Um are you willing you and your team or whoever was contributing willing to publicly disclose which wallets are yours Because that will determine how much stock is actually out there you know how many votes are out there and how many votes are just owned by the team Um because that'll also determine if anything can be passed because if you guys have the majority then all of this is right Well in the spirit of transparency I I feel very comfortable saying that uh the founders and contributors uh to the best of my knowledge don't have anything close to a majority of stock And I I understand that there's been a lot of chatter that you know we're in control of the whole protocol and we can just vote the way however we want things to go Um I can promise you that's not the case And in the past trying to get a lot of the votes passed uh which were from our perspective deeply important to the success of the protocol uh was often a a nailbiting event And um you know at the same time if there were a proposal to uh return the funds uh personally I I don't think I would support it Um but based on having had quite extensive discussions with a lot of the other contributors I I think a lot of them would support it So um you know I think Can you can you publish your uh your wallet address in the town hall chat I will not be doing that What's the uh reason you don't want to do that Well there's a lot of reasons but first and foremost I don't think that's a fair standard for contributors No the reason I ask is because one of the reasons why a lot of people are pissed is you know Pinto was sprung up No one in Beamtock was notified Clearly some people in the know were able to financially benefit from the fact that they knew that the new protocol was being sprung up Obviously you guys all would have been in the know We're kind of curious to see how much money you made from all of that I can understand that I mean I think that's fair because a lot of Beantock's code ended up in Pinto right I mean that's a lot of the beans that were minted at the expense of the Beantock protocol ended up being to the benefit of Pinto So you know the question is how much money did you guys make I think one of the important points you're making here is that a lot of people feel like the money was uh paid for by the Beantock Dow to develop Pinta And I think it's worth going through uh and slowing things down a little bit where the Beantock Dow uh had to continuously uh vote to continue to fund development of the protocol And this was as I'm sure you know quite a contentious vote uh almost every time And that speaks to the the skepticism people have about paying for development of such a protocol and the in my humble opinion the procedures that were put in place by the DAO to vote uh on who to employ and how to maybe employ is the wrong word but who to pay uh and how to pay them and for what work they were being paid uh was a truly transparent process and one that looking back I'm very proud of having participated in setting up and the I mean I hate to interrupt you but you're talking around the questions that I'm or really the statements that I'm asserting here I mean look you I'm guessing the reason you don't want to publicly disclose your address is because it would show that you personally individually profited to the tune of millions of dollars from Pinto That's just my suspicion I don't have evidence because you won't share your address but I'm guessing that's the reason why Um and look you're talking about the merits of how you know money was spent with Beantock and you know fair enough but that has nothing to do with our complaints here right I mean at its core a lot of money was spent to benefit Beantock and it ended up benefiting Pinto Well I appreciate you pushing back but I do think the points about the efficacy of the Beantock development and how that was all authorized is deeply important to the point that you're making which is to say that the each of the pieces of development that were authorized by the DAO and beans were minted to fund uh were completed and ultimately We got to a point where the DAO didn't seem particularly interested in continuing to fund new development And furthermore uh having spoken extensively with uh the majority of the contributors to Beantock about this the negative sentiment towards them uh and the constant uh negativity despite the fact that they were all working really hard to try to help everyone uh make money from Beantock Um and the constant you know accusations that the devs were like extracting value from the protocol despite that that's such a weak argument though I mean and quite literally I mean that the devs were extracting value from the protocol I mean the split with Pinto this the the fork to Pinto and the fact that none of that was publicly disclosed to Beantock members that is a literal extraction of value by the developers right because all of you knew Pinto was being launched first So all of you uh ensured you'd profit the most when the protocol was announced publicly and people swarmed in to invest right Like let let's be transparent right Let's be honest with ourselves here You guys made millions In all likelihood you all made millions And well honestly I'm not even that much against it but like the around it is is frustrating Um and and you know and the question of like why are people accusing you of rugging It's because of like that right It's because you know for whatever reason whether it had merit or didn't you decided that it it was time to move on right It was time to go to Pinto I mean fine But then but then the the circumstances surrounding all of that even that was scummy I mean I I just I don't get it I mean I I'll eventually I'll let someone else speak if someone else wants to speak because I've been speaking for too long But this whole thing just smells like Well this is something that I I really want to honor what you're saying Um I think you know but just to just to say it I think the way that the Pinto launch went down uh was really not good and there was a difference between like the first week where there were a tremendous amount of bugs in the protocol and there were some transactions that were just burning value where it it really wouldn't have been appropriate for uh people to be playing around so early But after things settled down uh looking back it was definitely uh it is a shame that it was not communicated more clearly to the Beantock Dow and maybe to explain the reasoning uh at the time In addition to the the obvious problems with the debt uh where it was clear that Beantock had too much debt uh there was also a belief amongst uh the contributors that a big part of the problem was the community and money is fundamentally a social phenomenon And the hope was to really have a clean start And at this point recognize how foolish that perspective was and that ultimately the best course of action would have been to be as early as possible uh very transparent with the Beantock community that there was this fork happening and uh yeah that was a well that was a real mistake You mentioned something there transparency and a mistake right All right Well let's write that mistake Can you acknowledge publicly and in this recorded session that you financially profited significantly by relaunching Beantock in the form of Pinto Well no Uh to date I have not at all Um if you have not at all then can you share your wallet address Uh I could but I will not do that And the reason you won't is because I don't think that's a reasonable standard for people who are contributing to the protocol Wouldn't you say transparency is a reasonable standard Sure but transparency is a spectrum I I don't know what that means to be honest I mean transparency is a spectrum So so basically no transparency right I mean if it's a spectrum it can be transparent or not transparent And you're basically saying it's a spectrum It can be either way So what is it Well I I appreciate your frustration here and would say you know is it there's many different elements of disclosure and I think one of the the things that has been a a staple in Beantock uh historically is the amount of transparency and the rigor in which we have tried to and the lengths of which we have gone to try to be as transparent about all the risks and uh everything that was going on Uh so I I I do push back a little bit like having disclosures having a risk section in the white paper having a white paper uh the code being open source uh all of the discussion around BIPS taking place in public Uh there is a tremendous amount of transparency in general But to be clear no one no one is contesting the transparency of the development process We're contesting the transparency surrounding Pinto surrounding that fork I mean don't don't don't get lost in the details here but I mean people people liked the fact that that the protocol was developed in a transparent manner People like the fact that it was open source No one's contesting that No one's saying you didn't do that What people are asking about is how the Pinto fork happened why there wasn't transparency around that and who benefited the most from it Well I think in this call we've gone through that quite a bit Um well according to the call you said that you didn't benefit right That is that the assertion Well to be clear I am definitely a participant in Pinto Uh so far uh the value in the protocol has gone up Uh however what you asked me previously is if I have profited uh to which the answer is I have not because I have not taken out a single dollar from the protocol Okay So there there it is then So I mean you did profit you just haven't sold You haven't actualized your gains That's completely different Saying you didn't profit means you didn't make a dollar Your net worth has increased from being in Pinto at the start right I can't hear you if you're saying anything Well I'm not sure exactly what response you're looking for Uh the the honesty I mean an honest answer I mean the answer is yes right I mean like I'm addressing the reason why the community is upset and part of it is that there is the belief that developers self-enriched themselves right during the Pinto fork and clearly that happened but you're dodging the question Um I just want you to acknowledge it I think it's a a very reasonable point you're making and ultimately there is a I don't think anything I can do to prove uh my ownership of Pinto and all I would say is my ownership of Pinto is significantly less than my ownership of Beantock So you can say it was not a fair launch uh or that the devs were trying to enrich themselves But the reality is that the number of participants in the protocol in the first days and weeks was an order or two magnitude higher than in the original beantock launch So maybe that was simply a function of more people knew about the protocol and were interested in it But in terms of distribution and ownership the distribution and ownership of Pinto is significantly more widely distributed at this point in time than it was for Beantock I'm gonna I see a lot of questions in the town hall Does anyone else want to swap places with me Since I've been talking a bit long I don't want to hog the stage here And I just want to say thank you very much for coming up here Um I hope you can see that we're trying our best to do the right thing here I mean I don't fully see it I'm going to level with you because the right thing would be to redistribute assets back to fertilizer holders At least in my mind that's what it is Um I mean I know you have you have a personal opinion um to disagree with that You know the the problem the problem too is just you know you talked about writing a proposal and honestly I would be open to doing that The problem is that fertilizer holders don't have the ability to make a proposal in any way shape or form Um and you know I'll I'll look around see if I can find someone who's who's willing to write one with me But that that is the crux of it Um and you know just for the record I know there's always been a standing offer from people like Mod to propose on people's behalf And then I I can I can message him as well I mean it just the way that this whole thing went down just feels so wrong to me I mean even with regard to to how the chop rate was readjusted essentially forcing or causing fertilizer holders to become the exit liquidity of the hack victims I mean that's scummy as Come on I mean like and and you you've already highlighted it a little bit right In the sense that oh people were complaining that they would never have participated in the barn raise if they knew there were just going to be exit liquidity But I mean that's a fair point to make right Like why would anyone have participated in the barn race if the terms of the barn race were changed in such a malicious manner that essentially all the money that any barn race participant would have contributed would have just gone into the hands of someone else potentially even the devs who might have also and who likely were also victims of the hack Right Uh well on on this one I do think it's worth going a little deeper and I I I appreciate that earlier you acknowledged that the development in the BIPS uh and all the discussion there was incredibly transparent through Beantock's history Um I think the change in the chop rate was no different And that was a proposal that at the time the the problem that the protocol faced was quite similar to the problem the protocol faces now which is that there was nothing happening and there was too much debt And so there was an open question as to what to do and whether to restructure the debt whether to make it such that the people that wanted to get out could get out earlier uh with the hopes that if they all left if the people that wanted to leave were able to leave that that would actually enable the protocol to move on And the BIP that changed the chop rate uh like any other BIP was discussed uh for significant periods of time in advance of the proposal and it was uh ultimately voted on by the DAP and so as much as uh I hold on there just just a quick question aside because I just remembered something here Prior to that BIP wasn't there another BIP that reduced the number of stocks needed uh for a vote to get passed Like the percentage uh of stocks needed for a proposal to get passed was reduced right Was it was it reduced to 33% or something to that extent Am I correct on that Yeah I think it was something like that uh it's 33% if I recall correctly but every vote against increases the amount that needs to be voted for in order for it to pass up to a majority And so if let's say there was 17% uh of the vote that voted against of the stock that voted against uh there still would have been that 50% minimum to pass something Um and it's worth saying that just humor me for a second Um at the time this was a change to the protocol that just speaking personally I had a a visceral reaction against Uh but on the flip side there was a really existential problem which was that there was a lot of grown stock that could have been uh mowed uh by anyone because mowing is permissionless And had some of the major accounts that had been moan uh that that hadn't moaned in a very long time that had significant grown stock been moan uh the amount of uh stock that would have been required to pass any uh governance proposals uh would have been uh given the history of votes up to that point uh highly highly highly unlikely to pass And so there was an existential crisis facing the protocol which was that if uh there wasn't a change to the rules around passing BIPS that it was highly likely that no BIPS would ever be able to be passed in perpetuity And so where we sit here today uh where let's say that you put forward a proposal and there ends up being a significant amount of agreement behind it uh we would not as a collective ever be in a position to enact that proposal that we may all come to agreement on And so this was a quite an existential risk to the protocol if you will And that was where the the proposal to change the quorum for passing votes came from But will say that at the time and still to this day like that's a change that totally sucked and you know was something that I I uh I supported quite begrudgingly but you know there was a a choice between the reason I bring it up is just because there clearly was a lack of participation in voting right that's what you're asserting at its core and because of that paired with the fact that people we're going to mow and reduce the number of stock meant that no proposal would get passed in the future based on the current requirements Um my problem with the whole thing is that the number of votes needed got reduced which okay there might have been a reason for that but paired that with the complete lack of attendance right in in from the community to do any votes you know because like I said most people in the community have already written this protocol off for dead um means that a very small handful of people to vote right yeah but my whole point is there is a very small handful of people with enough votes to pass anything they wanted and that includes the chop rate increasing whether you supported that or not Right Totally Clearly there is a small handful of people that own a majority of the stock and now that the number of votes needed got reduced those people have even more power to do that vote I mean I would say a small handful that's not my experience at all uh again trying to get votes to pass uh historically was quite a a cumbersome and difficult process and you know if there are is a small handful of stockholders that control the majority of stock or a significant chunk of it uh I don't know who they are and so I appreciate that your perspective may be that uh and it's totally reasonable why you may think that uh the quorum was changed to empower a small group of uh major stockholders to do whatever they wanted with the protocol but in reality uh at least that's not my experience Pizza man asked is there a stock ownership chart for beans And then there's another question of where did the initial participation or where did the initial participants learn about Pinto So those are two questions that I would also have Um I I don't know if there's a stock ownership chart for Bean I I assume there is in the Dune dashboard I I'd be grateful if someone could maybe try to find that uh so that I can continue to be present uh on the stage And where did those initial participants learn about Pinto Uh it was largely word of mouth So you told your friends Uh generally that's one way to think about it But it's worth saying the set of contributors to Pinto is like 15 And so the idea that you know I'm telling my friends you know that's one way to look at it But on the other hand there was no restriction about who could tell who about anything And I think at this point well except for Beantock right You know there was a general consensus that the 15 people couldn't tell the Beantock community that Pinto was going to happen right Based on based on your previous statement there was a collective decision made not to announce it in the Beantock Discord That's correct Gotcha Okay And I want to say again uh I think at this point uh that decision was quite foolish and personally I'm very sorry about that Sorry take maintenance man You're saying were you asking if if Ben could uh finish what he was saying about the chop rate or were you talking to me Yeah I'm not I'm not exactly sure about the question either I'm mostly trying to make sure everyone gets heard since I've I've kind of monopolized the time on the speakers uh stage here That wasn't my original intention but you know if anyone wants to to come up please do I don't think you're hogging it at all It's greatly appreciated on my end So one one one go ahead thing that is being brought up in the town hall that's a pretty good question is would you be open to the idea of migrating um the liquidity from beantock to Pinto and creating a different I don't know incentive or reward structure for the beantock participants um that are now going to benefit Pinto with that added liquidity right I And to be clear I think this question stems from the belief that right now all the liquidity in the beantock pools is just dead money And I think a lot of people want to see that money go towards something else and at least have them see some financial benefit on the back end Well there there there is at least one uh option that comes to my mind So maybe to walk through the analysis you know I think the the big difficulty may maybe to start with what what is possible So there's this pool of about $4 million of liquidity in the silo and the liquidity that's not being itself And so in theory the Dow could vote to effectively close off all liquidity for um beans or maybe 90% of that and then effectively market buy uh in some capacity or add liquidity to but you get my point uh the Pinto protocol And in doing so the beantock DAO could effectively purchase a significant share of Pinto Now there's a lot of problems and complexity with this idea but to expand on it a bit further the big problems as I see it one is around distribution of uh the returns uh like ultimately beantock has a whole yield distribution mechanism to the silo the field and the barn And the you know doing doing so where the protocol would basically have to take uh the Pinto that it is earning and then distribute that Pinto to the silo the field and the barn of the original beantock is quite complicated Uh not to say that it's impossible but it's quite complicated to do uh but it is technically feasible The part where I think it's a lot more difficult to do well is around the conversions So obviously converts are quite a significant portion of peg maintenance at this point and the big problem is around collective converting which is something that we've uh spoken about quite extensively in the past around group converting and autocon converting where if the protocol uh as a whole is converting under any c particular circumstances there is a significant amount of value that can be extracted uh from the protocol And so the only real option given that that's the circumstance would be to effectively not allow conversions So what that would look like in practice is probably the Dow just depositing LP and never touching it Um or the Dow you know depositing Pinto or the Dow purchasing espinto or something um and never touching it in terms of conversions And so there is a way to participate in Pinto but it's not you know it's definitely not optimal uh from a peg maintenance perspective but it is possible I see Mad uh asking what about individuals can they give up stakes and migrate Uh at this point you know that question is deeply related to the idea of winding down Beantock where there is $4 million of exogenous value in the system And it's unclear how to align incentives properly to redistribute that value or distribute that value um in a way that would not be you know totally you know screwing one participant or another participant And so this this goes back to the misalignment of values around or the misalignment of incentives between the stockholders that get to vote and the fertilizer holders that contributed value uh and the pod holders And so I don't I don't see a path forward to do that personally Uh but am very interested in seeing what RL's proposal is that uh he said he's going to write up You know I want to call attention to what Miro is saying uh where he says uh suboptimal is better than what we have right now though And I can definitely see how from an individual's perspective and potentially from the Beantock D perspective that migrating the value from uh Beantock over to Pinto would be very attractive Um for me personally it's quite unattractive because I am very interested in seeing Beantock uh continue to run uh even if it is in a quite hobbled uh crippled state at the moment Uh for me personally I I'm very interested in seeing how this experiment comes uh continues to come along But at the same time I I totally recognize that there is a significant desire to wind this thing down and move on I mean I I just speaking personally I mean I it doesn't make sense to me that you keep saying that you're interested in seeing Beantock live on while simultaneously leaving the project and going to something else That doesn't that doesn't sit well with me Um I mean totally Right So I mean can maybe maybe talk more about that I mean how can you how can you h hold such a view while doing while engaging in actions that are exactly contrary to that Well I think the the road is nonlinear is the punch line and it may be that ultimately in order for the protocol to succeed uh we need to take quite a number of detours and from my perspective the number one thing that you know to your point about Bill Gates has never shown up and dropping 20 million bucks into this because he stumbled upon Uh the best thing that we can do to potentially facilitate a revival of beantock is to demonstrate the efficacy of credit based low volatility money And I really can foresee a future where Pinto is worth billions of dollars And people are like hey you know if this model really works then the original credit of such a system is worth more than the fork And in that future I could totally see a significant movement of capital uh either rotating from Pinto into Beantock or new capital trying to basically rival the Pinto system Um I do see that there is a Soyaman Pintoit that wants to go to the stage So I'll uh I'll leave the stage at this time so you can have the opportunity I mean feel free to hang out up here too if you prefer I think we can support multiple people Um I'm not sure I know how to invite him up here Let me see I still don't know how you got up here honestly I'm happy that you came but I can't say that I know how you got up here Uh if anyone else can help me out on that front that would be appreciated I think it's been approved I don't know I'm I'm Discord rusty They moved a lot of the buttons I guess Yeah I know this doesn't make for great entertainment Give us a few seconds everyone If people could maybe comment if they know how I can get soy and pintoits up here that would be great How did you get up here RL Um I requested it It got approved A window appeared asking if I'd like to accept the invitation onto the stage and I accepted Do you know who approved I have no idea I do believe that he got approved A window probably appeared on his computer and he might not be um at his computer to accept the invite Oh there it is Hello sir Uh I think your microphone is not on Hello Can you hear me Yes sir Yeah So you were mentioning Ben that you want to see the bean experiment through but I feel like I I think that that's not what you actually believe what you actually believe is that the real solution here for everybody would be to migrate that fund over to Pinto and I think that's what you ultimately want to do too So instead of having like you know different debates about like what we would prefer to see which I don't think is true let's just align and say that we want to migrate uh bean to Pinto figure out the distribution mechanism and a and start doing that because I feel like we're going to get into this cycle of like you know debating if we should do it or not and uh and we're going to get nowhere We've been doing that for a long time So can you tell people I know you feel bad that uh the situation happened the way it happened but ultimately I I really feel that what you want to do is move the funds to Pinto and that's also why you created this this uh beantock a AMA um you know that Pinto is not in a great place either and it would uh it would uh benefit from help from uh Bean Fun So let's align on that and uh and go through with it I appreciate you coming up here and sharing your perspective Uh personally my I I do see a lot of benefit in having the beantock dow basically market by uh over any interval you know $4 million of Pinto uh that obviously would benefit Pinto quite a significant amount and has the potential to kickstart uh another growth cycle of Pinto uh which could be very exciting Um and from that perspective I think you're right there's a lot of interest in doing so Uh however for me I I still view us and I use the royal we here uh us creditbacked uh credit based uh money enjoyers in the very early stages of our journey our collective journey And Beantock really was the first uh it was sort of a 0ero to one if you will for the first time uh in the post like ESD DSD era where a credit based money didn't just grow and blow up instantly Uh and for me just taking into context the fact that we're so early in all of this and the experimentation in many ways has only just begun uh even if a lot of the core building blocks are in place uh makes it such that it's really not clear to me that if if if we're optimizing for just making money uh I think you're probably right that the most profitable course of action would likely be to have the beantock Dow market buy Um but from the perspective of really trying to treat this with the nature of experimentation which from my perspective is the like the most genuine and ethical way to handle this stuff Uh it it it seems to me like far and away the better course of action for the experiment uh is to allow for Beantock to continue in its current form Uh at the same time I recognize that you know the DAO may decide to do otherwise and that would be part of the experimental nature of the system if you will but from where I sit um from where I sit just there to me I I really do see there being a a ton of potential for Beantock eventually to make a turn and I I personally do not have a desire to uh give up or sell that call option on a beantock future Um but I can totally appreciate why a lot of people would Yeah because you said it This is an experiment We're on the second experiment and this is what you do when you do a startup You try something If it works you you keep going If it doesn't you scrap it and cut your loss You pivot to something else This is the same situation right now You guys pivoted to Pinto more more robust protocol a better version of Bean So we need to cut our losses It's like I'm not going to I have I have a company I have 10 products within that company Three of them are not working I'm not going to continue maintaining those three uh those three products They're just not working I'm going to cut my losses and use those that resources elsewhere and the products that that are working So you know Ben I I I see I I you're trying to be genuine and and and and good to the community here but I I think it's just going to create you position because you're the leader here you positioning yourself as you know oh no I want to see bean stuck through and I think it can uh have a comeback is going to then persuade other people who believe in you who trust your judgment to for example vote against a migration and that would hurt that would hurt you and that would hurt everybody else because the right the right thing to do here is either to cash out somehow or to migrate the the money to into bean is is dead unfortunately in it current in its current form and I I think for the for the future and beyond because now the focus is on Pinto and that's just the nature of experiments one failed now onto the other one we right don't we agree here I see a lot of merit in what you're saying uh that in many instances it may be better to cut our losses and move on Um I think one of the big open questions around a lot of these autonomous systems is how they persist in perpetuity Like these are things that don't really have off switches and so we can as a collective turn it off but if we don't it will continue to run itself and I am very sorry it will run itself to zero like it it is different than other that is unclear to me that that is not that's true that's true it is unclear but there's high probability that will that will go uh to zero difference I don't know why you say that like the the protocol has not had any major uh like deviations in price It's just been a slow bleed and the nature of an AMM and the chop rate is such that uh the value that people will be able to remove from the protocol will decrease effectively exponentially in order to preserve the price And so to me it's quite unclear that it's ever going to go to zero And part of me wants to argue that if it hangs out at 20 cents for a couple years like you could argue that you know trying to maintain a peg of a dollar it's totally failed But under the perspective of low volatility money which is you know the new branding for Pinto is not that it's a stable coin it's low volatility money I I think I think it's totally reasonable to look at something like beantock and say you know it's pretty low in volatility right Right But it's a volat low volatility around a price target which a price target is one It's not designed for low volatility around a price target of 20 cents the the incentive and you know well the incentive mechanism built into beantock are such that if it's that much off like you said it's going to get it's just going to bleed out slowly and slowly it's going to go under 20 cents it's not going to it is not optimized to uh osiliate around 20 cents we we agree on that so um so it is not going to go to zero actually you're right in in in in in practice it cannot actually go to zero but it will go to very close to zero Um um yeah So I'm my point here is like I I don't know I don't know if you actually believe this that you want to see been suck through or because this is just going to create confusion in the community People are going to not agree because of this uh and I don't see how there's no logical like explanation of why you would keep uh this experiment running It is you are right in the sense that it is different than other than than other sorry than other products because here you have like money within it So this is more this is why cutting the losses early is more important than like let's say I have some stupid API that nobody uses So you know so whatever it doesn't cost me anything to run that API so I'll just leave it open um here there's $5 million or whatever Um so the the the the the scale is different So I think it's important that we align and and you also tell the community that what you that we should migrate you know instead of saying like it's very nice your words and stuff but instead of saying that let's just like be more direct and you know this is going to slowly burn the if you want to make some money out of it or and participate in the success of Pinto the the the best uh solution the best response would be to uh to to migrate to Vint I think what you said is correct I just don't believe that to be the best course of action But in so far as people do you know I encourage people to put together a proposal and try to make that happen But I I do feel very entitled to the perspective that this is worth allowing to continue in perpetuity and not cutting the experiment short But in so far as there is a you know a 33% plus quorum that is voting fa in favor of doing so you know I'm certainly not in a position to stop it But I really do feel like again in the nature of experimentation the best thing that we can do is to let this thing continue to run And it may be that in 10 years we look back and say yeah that was stupid like Pinto grew to billions of dollars or more and we as a DAO had the opportunity to buy it with a market cap of like 10 million and that didn't happen and that was super foolish So I I want to honor what you're saying that there's a there there are very good reasons why that is the best course of action for the Dow to take Uh right But it's the I mean the most optimal choice would be that Wouldn't you agree It's your you personally don't believe it Okay You want to see it through but the most the best response would be to um to uh to transfer that fund to to to Pinto Do you believe that Well it depends what you're optimizing for I think if you're optimizing for return uh that is that is likely the case Yeah I mean return because if I'm optimizing return return is also a good proxy for health of like how well Pinto is doing So optimizing if you optimize for return uh on investment uh for Pinto you're also you know that's a proxy for the health of Pinto So if you make money Pinto is is doing well Um so it's kind of the same thing right Like yes we all want more money here Uh but yeah that's I look forward to seeing the proposal you put together Yeah I'll try to see if uh who else is uh can join me on doing this and we can a proposal The thing is like the hard thing would be the like you said the um the uh the distribution right yeah very difficult there's a significant amount of development work that would have to go into something like that and what is there is there a quick like what is I'm trying to think like okay there's something that we don't want to spend months right the longer we wait the the lower the price will be the less valuable the asset so like short term you know the protocol could just market high and then figure out how to implement a distribution mechanism in the future um or is there a simpler I'm saying where where we do a compromise a simpler distribution mechanism that wouldn't require uh a lot of dev and I can help on the dev side like I'm just trying to to to to see is there but you're saying there's a first there's a field there's the silo unfortunately not as far as far as I'm aware you know in order to honor the unique structures of the pod line of the the barn race and of the silo Uh it would be quite difficult to do it perfectly Uh at the same time it's not to say that like there's a there are probably a couple different uh ways to do it each with slightly different levels of difficulty but um could we could we could measure we could Yeah I was thinking maybe like at the end of the day what we want to know is okay how much what's their fair share in being stock right uh given that you have money in all these different uh places yield whatever for is there an easy way to find that out like you know we have the stock for the silo so that we know your share but then we can do um I mean I have to I'm sorry I'm just thinking out loud here but I have to do more research about that actually find a simple way where we can basically do the sum of the assets that are in all these different places F right uh field silo uh and then somehow you know that we basically have to find the numer numerator the denominator we know it's like 5 million and then the numerator would be like what we need to find out here uh which I guess the field is more complicated because there's that the right the time at which you still okay I can think about this Yeah I'll think about it Sorry Don't be sorry Thank you very much for trying to figure all this out Yeah Yeah Pricing PS in the field is going to be the the the toughest right Matt I I see you hopped up here How are you Good Fine Fine buddy I just had a thought I I mean I mean I think most of this this stems from like there is a Can you try to fix your microphone just so we can we can all hear you a little more clearly Are you able to hear me Yeah I think this is better Yeah Yeah No my thought is I think you are just not saying what you really believe should happen Look there is the there is the capital which would be useful for Pinto You know that and you would you would want some kind of a solution I don't know if you're still speaking but I I don't think we can hear you Hello Yeah we can hear you now Yeah like that there is obviously there is something which you which you want is which you think is the right direction You also unfortunately want the Dow to continue So I think you you should you should formally put together your position in terms of like what would be the best position going forward It might not be the most equitable or whatever but I think you hold the solutions cuz like I I I don't know whoever was developing the initial protocol and has the vision is where the community needs to go Everybody understands that it is not going to be equitable Everybody also understands by reason of timing or uh just the fact that you guys know better u there's alpha and you have profited from it but but I think something within you wants to continue and you are here I mean if if uh if you only were profit oriented you would have gone but you're still here my thinking is like I think you need to kind of navigate this um dow out of the mess where it is I I I believe that if you can honestly put that effort but if if you are just thinking that oh I I just want the liquidity of the Dow and the Dow needs to just like market buy something so that my second venture is successful that's not an honest position That's not a good position um you need to you need to kill this effort or you need to at least put an honest way to what would be the way forward You cannot have it both You cannot say like oh I want my first child to survive while it is like completely diseased while my second version is like doing well You have to be honest here and that that's my take Thank you for uh saying that and for raising your skepticism I from my perspective the current setup of Pinto is what is in my mind the optimal path forward where people may or may not be aware but the Pinto protocol effectively has uh distributed pods and fertilizer uh and effectively some element of stock although it's different to all old bean stockholders with the exception of liquid beans and LP token stockholders uh who can leave at any moment but for all of the participants that are sort of stuck here Pinto has uh honored your ownership within Beantock and so I I appreciate your skepticism that I'm not saying you said then you should stick by that and basically say that is the way forward like you should just and not nothing else Well I I do I feel like a lot of what I'm doing here is trying to get the people that are very upset to see that we have tried our absolute best to put our best foot forward and at the same time perhaps did not communicate that nearly well enough to the community And I understand that there's a lot of uh anger and disappointment about that But for me the current setup of Pinto really does get us the best of both worlds where we effectively get a beantock debt restructure We also get Beantock to continue to run in its current form So we get that data and we get to get a clean start on Pinto Uh it really does feel like the optimal path forward from where I sit Uh so perhaps that has not been nearly well enough communicated but I think the the path that we are on is Go ahead Yeah If you could if you could if you could clearly state that the current state is is what you believe is the most optimal and that's where you are just here to essentially just like kind of is the venting session but the most optimal thing from your assumptions being the visionary or whatever from both all the protocol vision you think that that is the place to be because because what people are thinking is like there is there is somewhere to go No this is this is where you want it to be That is correct Thank you I was confused about that a little bit Yeah Thank you so much for trying to clarify You know one thing that this uh makes me feel like sharing is it's been really hard for me to know how to communicate with the community and clearly I have not done a good job of it Um it's worth saying that after the hack you know when uh the three of us doxed ourselves and came forward uh it felt like the right thing to do at the time and you know at the same time uh just at a personal level really was not prepared was not ready to be a public figure in perpetuity And it's been a really long and difficult almost three years now since And I think a lot of the difficulty has manifested in quite poor communication with this community and just a lack of comfort from my perspective to get up here and talk about what's going on and through you making your confusion more clear uh that you know from where you were sitting it was totally unclear that we were on the optimal path and it just felt like people were left behind uh that's clearly a failure uh of communication on my part and for that I'm very sorry and I also want to say that at this point I I have spent uh a lot of time doing a lot of work on myself to try to get to a point where I can uh on a recurring basis uh engage uh publicly with the community in a doxed fashion And so uh part of what I I wanted to do here was to to reopen the dialogue a bit and to recognize that uh you know I have fallen quite short over the past couple years and at the same time feel like we do have the whole world before us and that there is a really tremendous opportunity uh for Pinto to succeed and for if Pinto to you know if Pinto ultimately succeeds for Beantock to succeed and so it's obviously been uh I would say is that there are there are worse characters in in in crypto so the fact that you are here and trying I don't know your intentions but the fact is like it is driven by the vision which you wanted for the first DA so you are still here and as long as you keep communicating I I think there is a way out um you might know the not know the answers or you might know the answers but but the reality is like you can't get everything you won't get everything so you you just have to you you just have to at some point draw the lines wherever they are um and the fact that you are still here is a positive for for the DA I mean they might not be aligned right today But this would be a question right If like Pinto makes billions so then this would be a non-issue So thank you for being here I guess Thank you sir All right I don't see much more chatter coming in in the chat Um is there anything anyone else wants to to say here Okay Well to to wrap things up uh first I want to thank everyone for coming here and uh particularly RL and Solemen and MAD for coming up here and sharing their perspective Um I see a question now from MAD Uh do you plan to engage with Bean community or what is left of it in the future I think in so far as I I mean there's an open question based on the discussion today about whether the bean community will integrate more closely with the Pinto community Um I think it probably would be good to just figure out and come to some sort of consensus on what that would look like um you know from my perspective I do intend to engage quite a lot um with the Pinto community moving forward and so perhaps that will extend itself into engaging with the bean community but uh that that will be my primary mode of engagement moving forward but perhaps you know on a quarterly basis or something we can um you know come back here in the Beantock Discord and sort of take a an evaluation of the state of things and and that's separate from it seems like in the short term there will be quite a quite a lot of movement uh on different proposals from people like RL and solemen and uh on how to move this uh you know move this forward or to its conclusion um or not at all Um I see another question from Soyleman Uh how would a market buy work Can you share specifics Well uh the simplest version would be to just buy Pinto and deposit it Uh obviously it would have to happen uh in a discretionary fashion so that it really couldn't be frontr run Um and you know the the yield from that purchase would then have to be distributed in some fashion to all the existing participants which would be quite complicated to to handle properly but it it is possible Um I see some typing Let's Let's see if there's any other questions that come in So while there's a little typing um it seems like the chat is sort of wrapping things up but I wanted to just take an opportunity to thank everyone for coming here Um I know it's been really painful and uh I really do know how much trauma there is here Um a lot of money was lost and this is really the bleeding edge Uh and this is an experiment and a lot of what goes on with that is a lot of missteps and a lot of uh you know a lot of fuckups And I I for one can certainly say that uh you know I see how the way that things have gone down over the past couple months have been uh a total turnoff to a lot of the people that really believe deeply in the potential for this experiment to actually work And so I understand that uh there may have been a a significant loss of uh trust or faith and that's totally reasonable [Music] Um but we are uh maybe I'll just speak for myself Uh I am more motivated than ever to make the idea for uh Leviathan free credit based uh currency to work and see that we are further than ever and see there to be a tremendous amount of potential for this idea that all of you are some of the earliest supporters and proponents of And so to the extent that we can um we can figure out how to realign ourselves uh even after all that's gone down um I think that's in the I think that would be a really wonderful outcome So uh I'm here trying my best and appreciate very much the the courteous and respectful dialogue that we had today and um understand that tensions are high Um but um I leave this uh call quite hopeful for the future of Beantock uh and for the future of uh our experiment So thank you all for your time Uh hope to uh hope to be hearing from people soon and hearing from uh the proposals soon and uh yeah it's an exciting time Take care