S1E22: Beanstalk Farms and Governance With astn

October 17, 2022

0:00 Intro • 2:42 Austin Introduction • 4:27 Austin's Role • 6:50 Beanstalk Governance • 9:56 Moving Back to On-Chain Governance • 14:26 Reaching Quorum • 19:50 Vote Delegation • 23:33 The Farmer's Almanac • 28:47 The Beanstalk Farms Committee • 33:48 Community Involvement in Development • 44:58 How Can People Get Involved Now?

The Bean Pod



welcome to the bean pod a podcast about decentralized finance and the Beanstalk protocol I'm your host Rex before we get started we always want to remind everyone that on this podcast we are very optimistic about decentralized Finance in general and Beanstalk in particular with that being said three things first always do your own research before you invest in anything especially what we talk about here on the show second while you're doing that research try to find as many well-developed opposing viewpoints as possible to get the best overall picture Third never ever invest money that you can't afford to lose or at least be without for a while and with that on with the show Beanstalk like so many other web 3 projects and protocols is at its core a technical creation economics plus computer science with some front-end design for good measure equals the farm and all the functions that go along with it at least that's how it might seem from a distance however when one takes a closer look they'll see that like so many other web 3 projects and protocols Beanstalk is a creation driven by people people interact with a protocol people vote on how to change functionality or allocate budget resources and people contribute their time and talent to make the project more successful so how does Beanstalk navigate all of these people situations before the exploit earlier this year major governance functions were all on chain educational and other information was produced by a number of departments like Community marketing and Design budgeting and contributor management duties were handled at the department level with the heads of those departments completely independent of one another for better end at times for Worse the post-exploit Beanstalk is radically different governance is temporarily off chain and the staff is significantly Slimmer and more concentrated a handful of incredibly talented folks are pouring themselves into the project to ensure its success and we're lucky enough to be talking with one of them today Austin a longtime farmer stepped into a contributor role during the post exploit rebuild and now helps to oversee operations governance and budgeting processes he's joining us on this episode to talk about things like Dow voting the Farmer's Almanac and beanstalk's new approach to hiring and managing contributors so Austin thank you so much for joining us on the podcast thanks for having me Rex great to have you so how about you start us off by just telling us a little bit about yourself and um what brought you to Beanstalk sure thing yeah so I go by Austin and beanstalkland uh perhaps unsurprisingly that is also my name and I have a background in computer science had worked as a software engineer at a couple different uh non-crypto companies prior to being stock and had been casually interested and invested in crypto for a couple years but hadn't really considered dedicating more of my career to it uh until last fall an OG Bean farmer introduced me to Beanstalk and you know I immediately thought it was pretty interesting and the more I tried to to poke at it the fewer ways I I saw it breaking so I ended up uh you know leaving my last job earlier this year you know interestingly I was actually taking taking some time off and not not really working as part of the the core team on Beanstalk um but then once the hack happened um there was just uh you know I think Beanstalk needed some help and uh I had some time so I kind of dove in and uh you know here we are now where uh I basically spend all my time energy and brain power thinking about you know how to how to improve Beanstalk excellent so when I think of what you do around the farm I like there are the things that come to mind for me are things like governance and documentation is that is that a pretty good description is there more talk us through what what your role looks like with Beanstalk yeah you bet so I think uh I think my original hiring proposals you know I think I made up some some title like government governance operations which uh you know I think in my job I end up naming a lot of things and I think we can uh we can write that one off as a as a big Miss uh but yeah I sort of think about my role generally as taking care of everything needs to get done outside of uh an engineering or marketing capacity so you know sometimes that involves uh you know doing budget planning and drafting you know the quarterly budget Pips for Beanstalk Farms other times that's thinking about you know off-chain security stuff that we can do to improve uh you know the security of Beanstalk with regard to to bug Bounty programs uh which we launched one this last week uh you know all the way to writing documentation which um you know I spent a lot of time on pre-unpause uh when we didn't have a a gift book of any sort so yeah it ends up spanning uh several you know several different areas and yeah I just I just sort of see my role as uh making sure those things happen basically whether and of course when I say me you know it's me and our our small But Mighty operations team you know it takes it takes a village yeah indeed so I think what we'll do is we'll kind of take all those pieces and start to kind of break them into smaller parts and maybe talk through them because there's a lot of really interesting things that have happened really in each of those areas from you know from governance to documentation to like let's say like you know budgeting and like administrative components so to look at to look at governance um beanstalks had a lot of discussion about governance uh you know especially immediately for unpause and actually even before like right is the uh the government's attack was happening you know there was a lot of discussion about um how how governance in general should work on Chain versus off-chain governance um and then as three plants occurred and we've started to get back to whatever The New Normal is for Beanstalk again a lot of discussion about about how decisions should be made what's been your impression what are the thoughts that have gone through your mind as these discussions have happened yeah all good questions so you know I think it was very wise on you know the Dao's part after the governance exploit to move just not move too quickly you know I think there's not that many examples out there in D5 of very successful on-chain governance implementations and you know I think like like many upgrades to Beanstalk I think it's you know it's going to be a multi-step process of of research and development so obviously over the summer the Dow you know elected to uh go with a somewhat permissioned you know multi-sig form of governance in the meantime you know with the intention of eventually implementing a more permissionless version in the future and obviously that's really important because if beanstalk's goal is to is to be you know uh you know the most permissionless uh decentralized money on ethereum uh there's really no getting around the fact of having to having to implement a permissionless uh version of governance and you know while you could certainly just slap back on the governance mechanism pre-exploit and you know say all right now now when you obtain stock you don't get voting power until the following block uh which would improve flashlight resistance you know there's certainly a lot more a lot more research to be done um in terms of you know making it making it secure and having it having it formally audited and such so I don't know if that totally answers our question but just uh yeah answer generally as far as like why governance is important it's you know Beanstalk is an upgradable smart contract and it's not done and so upgrades to that contract also need to be facilitated and you know the most decentralized permissionless way possible um and even the current setup of the the multi-sig you know leaves a lot to be desired yes so what do you see as the process of moving from so as you mentioned we after the exploit we went to off-chain governance what do you see is the process um to moving back to something like you said something that's a little bit more on chain something that is um more permissionless and what that that end goal might be sure yeah um and you know there's a lot more more research to be done here but I'll sort of uh you know think out loud a bit about some of the current current thinking processes but I think we've talked a little bit about in the last couple down meetings um this product offered by halborn called Seraph which is a is a blockchain notary solution that essentially allows uh a blockchain security expert on their team to uh sort of audit these off-chain processes and on-chain processes that are happening you know in in one of the bfps that formed the the multi-cig there's you know uh in in gory detail uh you know documented all of the verification processes that uh the Beanstalk Community multi-sig signers are supposed to follow and such and even then that you know from the on-chain perspective that you know the call data for uh you know a submission to the BCM does what it it claims to and so in terms of um you know maybe some First Steps uh I think that's a pretty interesting thing to explore uh with halborn in terms of just having an extra layer of security and then you know you can think about all sorts of ways in which uh that could be censored you know maybe you know the government compels halborn to to block transactions so you would want some sort of other community multi-sig that can you know remove Seraph and uh so there's a lot of new stuff we're doing here with regard to to governance structure and Beanstalk and you know there are some some precedence you can you know look at you know the the various branches of the US government and how they they govern each other but so I mean I've been talking for for a couple minutes already and that's like you know step one of probably uh many and so you can imagine in the future uh you know right now snapshot is pretty limited um and voting isn't on chain you can imagine a fall of your future step where uh voting is on chain you know once again and anyone can verify the results of a vote which is a little bit a little bit tougher on Snapshot uh and probably for a while it probably makes sense to have the BCM still in place even with the transition back to on-chain governance similar to how uh you know Publius custody ownership of the Beanstalk contract prior to the exploit even though we did have you know fully fully permissionless government governance you know such that when security vulnerabilities are found you know bug reports on immunify are reported uh there is some sort of way to you know Implement security changes quickly but of course you know the eventual goal is the uh you know somewhat ossification of Beanstalk and you can imagine you know some final step in the very in in the future you know who knows whether it's one year two years from then would be you know removing that serif implementation uh you know removing ownership or transferring ownership of Beanstalk from the BCM to perhaps the null address uh you know in which state you can sort of sort of start to see the the light at the light at the end of the tunnel in terms of you know Beanstalk being or being stock governance rather being as you know decentralized as possible excellent and so I'm glad you mentioned uh halborn and serif um so for those of you listening we actually have a great episode where we interview um folks from hellborn and talk about the serif uh system it's episode 16 of the podcast so glad you looked back to that or um glad you glad you mentioned that Austin um so you mentioned voting and how we're using snapshot right now there's there's been a lot of talk within the community about reaching Quorum and you know what should be considered the the approval of a particular measure something like a budget versus a a smaller less influential item a lot of discussion about things like let's call it voter turnout and maybe voter fatigue what are have been your impressions about how the Dow has made its way in terms of voting on on different measures and whether or not there is fatigue showing and what could possibly be done to to help improve interaction yeah it's a great question um you know it's tough because it's uh it's some of both like in some ways it's probably maybe it's somewhat of a problem in other ways you know something to just you know consider when thinking about uh you know future upgrades I think you know so uh Publius mentioned yesterday this is uh for anyone listening this is October 13th the the Dow meeting and something that they've been spending time on is or maybe maybe just to zoom out a little bit uh there's this one component of Beanstalk called uh the depot which allows uh any protocol to come to Beanstalk and create what's known as a pipeline which allows assets within Beanstalk to be used in those protocols so just to give a quick example you could imagine uh maybe I have some ether or something like that in my farm balance I.E within the Beanstalk contract and I want to you know use that ethereum to open a liquidy trove that would require someone to write code specific to liquidy to integrate with uh you know beanstalk's internal Farm balances and the reason I mentioned that example is um you know uh we're sort of Switching gears to a more generalized setup such that less code needs to be uh written for each for each of these Integrations and it can sort of be you know written once and and lasts forever and so when it comes to governance I think from an engineering perspective like upgrades like that are really important such that you know every time uh you know in this future state where you know uniswap comes to Beanstalk and wants to integrate with Farm balances or liquidy comes to Beanstalk and wants to do so that it doesn't require a whole bip um so I think that kind of addresses some of the concern in terms of I suppose voter fatigue in terms of uh you know how often bips are being proposed and such but of course you know once we get back to permissionless governance there's no reason you know someone couldn't be proposing a bip uh every day it just so happens that at the moment um you know many bips are proposed by the couple of decentralized organizations formed by the Dao you know in in Beanstalk farms and and being Sprout so that's uh that's kind of like I guess one comment uh I have to make on the the voter fatigue front but one I guess another thing I'd want to add is you know thinking philosophically about what is required for for quorum to to upgrade Beanstalk and and make changes from my perspective it's pretty hard to imagine Quorum for bips being anything less than majority but you know there are a couple things that you know can help out with that one is that sort of more generalized architecture upgrades that I mentioned just a second ago and the other is you know there are certain classes of changes that require whole bips right now that maybe shouldn't in the future so one one topic of discussion that's been taking place in the community over the last couple weeks is uh you know the work required to Simply update the seeds per VD so excuse me the seeds per bdv for a given uh asset that's whitelisted in The Silo so you know there's various Assets whitelisted in The Silo and for depositing different ones you may receive different numbers of seeds and that's the sort of upgrade that you know maybe it shouldn't require a 50 maybe maybe the Dow should just uh vote on some uh ideal ratio of how many seeds all of those various assets have and then have Beanstalk Target that for example so those are a couple thoughts I have um but we could probably uh you know there's probably a bit more to dig into in terms of uh you know what voting looks like maybe potential like delegation Solutions things like that but those are just a couple initial thoughts I have do you have any particular opinion or view it seems like that's become you know a popular topic you know where if I was not planning to be especially active in the Dow I could delegate the the votes come along with my stock to someone else and essentially give them increased voting power to try to meet Quorum is is that something that could potentially happen that's a great question uh I mean that's the sort of thing that you know I we as a community Etc uh you know need to do some more more thinking and research on just you know spitballing a little bit you can imagine how if you could delegate voting power of your stock that that could you know centralize somewhat quickly I don't know if uh you know I don't know if you guys went through like sort of the the airdrop interface for whether it was like ens or optimism Etc like at the time you claim your airdrop uh you're so it asks you if you want to select um you know particular delegates to delegate your voting power to but but not your tokens and with those sorts of systems you know it's like it's not like I really know much about optimism governance in particular I'm kind of more inclined to just you know pick someone that the first one that suggested to me or where a lot of other people are delegating to and you know one of the one of the really elegant things about the stock system is that um I mean not just the distribution of being mints decentralizes over time but also voting power so that would that would mitigate that a little bit and so you can sort of think about like well how can you uh how can you mitigate that part of it it's like maybe you can have some sort of limit of you know voting power ownership on a given on a given address but of course you know ethereum addresses aren't civil resistant but you can you know maybe people are delegating stock to People based on reputation so it'd be hard to you know attract uh delegate votes to multiple addresses if you're a single single person or entity so those are just a few thoughts um you know I don't think I don't think anyone has the the perfect answers at the moment but but certainly something to think about yeah it seems like there's a lot of good healthy discussion happening inside of the Dow and admittedly one of the things that I appreciate is that the community has um has produced a lot of individuals that have a desire to really find the right answer as opposed to the quick answer yeah and I would just add another thing that I think it's um I think it's quite amazing that like you know at what is it maybe 60 million Stock Supply you know a year and a couple months after initial deployment and for things that are you know I mean even like bip 24 is like an architectural upgrade and I I don't think it was super controversial obviously there's a lot of discussion about the budget bips and uh I think it's kind of amazing that you know I I think as as important as it is to have all this discussion about potential Solutions um you know I think uh you know in my opinion I think there hasn't been a a high quality bip that you know has failed to reach Quorum so yeah I agree but you know we'll see what happens in the future no telling what happens so I want to shift gears just a little bit so you mentioned earlier the Farmer's Almanac uh would you take a minute to kind of walk us through what that is uh what's included in it what benefit it offers folks that are you know either maybe new to the protocol or re-familiarizing themselves with it after replant um you know just just talk us through the the document a bit yeah well to to set the scene a little bit um you know I think when when Publius deployed Beanstalk the only form of of documentation was was the white paper which you know is probably one of the most oh probably the most thorough document about Beanstalk in existence albeit you know pretty pretty complex and and Technical as you know I'm sure we've all experienced and I think over the you know six seven eight months that Beanstalk was on after that it's sort of like emerged that the most widely circulated information about Beanstalk or teaching people about Beanstalk was uh various articles written by community members and so I think that was sort of an indication that there was a strong desire for um you know some documentation that you know could be thorough but but perhaps a little bit more more accessible so that was something that you know Beanstalk Farms had spearheaded uh over the summer a little bit before the unpause and yeah that's uh that came in the form of the Farmer's Almanac which uh you know no no new crazy ideas a lot of other D5 protocols have uh get books associated with their white papers but in beanstalk's case uh you know the Farmer's Almanac is a more you know accessible version of documentation uh explaining Beanstalk but the goal is to still be you know as thorough as possible and not not shy away from complexity too much you know and I think at the farm was a Farmer's Almanac I think of how to use Beanstalk in to your point the white paper is incredibly thorough also incredibly technical for me the Farmer's Almanac is something that I can turn to and be like well okay so this after unpause after replant you know this this function has been added or this new um you know type of asset has been added what is that thing how do I use it is there anything I should be worried about and it you know it's really a very practical resource for folks that are participating in the protocol yeah and you point out a good you make a good point which is uh there's also various uh how-to guides on you know simply using the Beanstalk interface so that's another component of it and then also of course it's also nice to be able to you know send folks links to specific sections like you know uh someone's asking about unripe assets and Discord you can send them a link to the Farmer's Almanac where it says whereas it's a little bit more difficult with uh the white paper in its in its PDF format yeah I completely agree as I think about what will be um core documentation or core resources uh as Beanstalk continues to grow you know it seems like um as the protocol develops there's still just a lot of complexity and so documents like the Farmer's Almanac are really going to continue to be key as we bring new participants in and as the protocol itself develops uh just to make sure that people are on the same page and that they can get their questions answered at least from a starting point you know a lot of folks get involved with the protocol and they have a lot of you know really basic questions about what a particular asset is how it works what it does what they can do with it and you know even if before long their questions are a lot more complex at least they can get through those you know those first initial discussions in a way that they can do on their own at their own pace and then as more complex questions form you know they can ask those to the members of the community or at University classes and and be ready for a little bit more uh in-depth discussion totally and uh another thing I didn't mention is you know uh in the Farmer's Almanac there's a lot of things we that weren't documentation that are outside of the scope of the white paper so things like you know how to get started contributing uh for example and uh there's probably a couple others that I I'm not quite thinking of at the moment yeah so I have to direct any listeners to that Farmer's Almanac it's such a good resource great starting point so to shift gears one more time I want to talk about the Beanstalk Farms committee and what the BFC does what their role is um how they represent the Dow what decisions they make and how they keep the protocol growing and progressing sure so I think it might be interesting and or helpful to talk about um you know the state of of Beanstalk Farms pre-exploit which was a pretty interesting experiment in decentralized uh development which was you know after the I think the first ever Beanstalk Farms budget in Q4 of last year uh there was this uh proposal structure set up such that anyone with I think it might have been like a couple thousand stock could propose uh to use the Beanstalk Farms budget in some way whether it's uh you know be hired on a recurring basis to work on particular things or for for one-off Budget uses and all of those proposals um were optimistically approved and if you think if you know just thinking about it that's that's a pretty interesting structure given how you know when you think of when you look at a lot of other D5 protocols in terms of use of their you know treasuries and Grant programs things like that um you know it's a lot more a lot more formal but I think you know in the state that Beanstalk was in where you know Publius was totally Anonymous and you know couldn't tap anyone in their Network to come work on Beanstalk it was really you know just uh this really organic group of people from the internet that became Bean farmers and and decided to start working on Beanstalk so I think I think at the time that structure for Beanstalk farms uh made a lot of sense and it was pretty cool in many ways to see you know the team grow in so many different departments uh you know both in in breadth and and magnitude and you know after the exploit of course you know uh there are a lot of folks that uh decided that you know either weren't able to continue working on Beanstalk or or something else and as unpause approached something that a few of us were thinking about was you know how can we figure out some sort of structure that's you know as decentralized as possible but can still can still facilitate the you know uh how should I put it you know good uses of of the Beanstalk Farms budget and so that was sort of where what we call the Beanstalk Farms committee was formed and this was uh you know formed by the Dow perhaps in July or so and then in myself and a few other people proposed the Dow to be to be added that to that committee and so as far as to answer the question of like what the Beanstalk Farms committee is uh in essence it's it's a uh you know group of contributors uh voted on by the Dow that have discretion over the Beanstalk Farms budget and that budget of course still has to be uh you know current the current structures that we propose to the Dow uh quarterly to Mint new beans so that's a little bit about what it is and so we spend a lot of time thinking about um or in particular uh from a Personnel perspective you know different things that we want to allocate resources to and so I think this was pretty transparent in the the most recent recent budget bit but a lot of the funds are going towards uh hiring Engineers perhaps for for obvious reasons they're sort of uh you know an unlimited amount of work to do on that front across the stack whether it's front end you know sub graph and and Bots work uh all the way to the contracts level so that's in a you know one particular place that a lot of uh you know budget funds end up getting allocated towards and and yeah I think you know it's sort of interesting uh maybe just like a quick aside um I'm not sure if you guys have uh saw the the sushi head chef uh sort of like election process but you know I I think that this sort of you know committee based uh organization if you will is a little bit more of a you know decentralized and in elegant implementation of of that structure yeah there seems like it seems like there is um such a tension between you you hit it when you talked about the pre-exploit Beanstalk organization where it was so organic and I would say at times to a fault and you know could be difficult to um both let's say locate and secure quality talent that was well informed about how Dows and and what three organizations work and you know in the right place to contribute the right things but at the same time brought a lot of you know a lot of outside knowledge a lot of atypical viewpoints you know a lot of really good unusual uh like contribution and and energy to the to the protocol to the project and then that you know that real formalized what you know we probably consider a you know web 2 or Corporate America structure that can at times be you know bogged down and rigid um and the the advantages and disadvantages to everything across that spectrum and it's been interesting to watch being stuck wrestle with that and how the committee has has developed from those questions and and the desire to kind of Hit The Sweet Spot in between the two yeah exactly and you know you mentioned something about how pre-exployed it was very very organic I would almost go as far to say that that right now you know perhaps it's too inorganic um you know something that we've been thinking a lot about recently is uh how can someone in the community contribute to Beanstalk without ever having to talk to anyone or send a Discord message like across the stack whether that's contributing to the get book or the white paper or excuse me the white paper or uh you know making open source contributions to the front end or the contracts for example when someone uh wants to permissionlessly propose a bip is the expectation that they also you know implement the the feature in the UI or you know uh account for that change in the white paper these sorts of things or these sorts of processes aren't aren't super well well documented right now and uh that's a problem so that's something that you know I'm gonna be spending more time working on and thinking about over the next next month or two so is there a is there a path that and admittedly I'm not an engineer not a technical resource so I'm I have to navigate these things as best as I can but like is there a path where at some point someone that has a particular experience with smart contracts can look at you know our open source code and say okay I see an opportunity for either an improvement or an additional feature and be able to move through that process like you said without necessarily you know even sending a Discord message well if you uh if you think about how the exploiter did it they certainly did it without that very fair yeah when it comes to uh upgrading the contracts and your specific example you know that requires a bit so the yeah certainly the eventual goal you know again once uh in this like sort of multi-stage transition process back to on-chain governance that I mentioned earlier uh you know the end state of that certainly would be uh exactly that where you can simply propose the change to the Dao and you know the Dao is uh discretion about whether to implement it or not yeah that's so interesting because I I mean what goes through my mind is as you mentioned that is both edges of that sword you know having um the potential for somebody that's got experience and knowledge to look at a particular problem or opportunity to be like yeah I can solve that and make that process as frictionless as possible is really exciting but to your point you know knowing that you know essentially the exploiter did just that you know saw an opportunity and in what we would probably consider uh you know a a method that we wish had more friction in it if you know for another reason than to be able to raise the alarm better you know made that change um you know it's both really exciting and a little bit worrisome and so you know kind of your point about this idea of utilizing the bip process that seems like good Safeguard but really some really interesting opportunities out there yeah I mean what I would add on that front is you know being able to propose a change to the Dow without ever talking to one anyone or sending a message uh having that be possible is different from that being the default desirable state in my opponent so like I think from a process perspective I think that's the the goal from or sorry from like a technical perspective uh you know allowing someone to permissionlessly propose bips but um you know and I'm just you know speaking you know in my own opinion here I think that's separate from sort of the you know the social norms that the Dao adopts around you know perhaps you know you know drafts or write-ups of the bips should be shared X days in advance of proposals such that it can you know discussion can be facilitated within the community um yeah when I give the example of uh you know permissionless proposing bips uh you know I don't mean to say anything about how you know discussion is not important or something of that is very important all that stuff is uh is critical to the success of Beanstalk but just from a from a technical perspective that is the uh desirable state in mind well in in it draws a really good distinction and I think about the Fantastic conversation that's happened within the community about quite a variety of different bips and other changes you know that I I don't I don't even know if it's at this point if it's even you know really possible for someone to to try to implement a change without that discussion happening if for no other reason the community has seemed to demand it I mean there's there's a lot of folks that are talking and picking apart recommendations or proposals for improvement and looking at those opportunities from a lot of different angles and driving really good discussion and yeah I I think you just hit it you know and even as even as we talk about it and I you know I follow your example of you know of of being able to propose something the social Norm aspect you know like you said doesn't doesn't really allow that but from a technical perspective if someone can navigate that side of the process easily it should naturally facilitate unique solutions from folks that might not have the same access to core contributors or you know or to Publius or you know whoever but but still have great things to offer you know it gives that opportunity for those things to happen while like you said from a social Norm standpoint the discussion is inevitable it it you know the community demands it exactly and I would just also add that you know even in the earlier days of Beanstalk where coincidentally Publius may have implemented you know the code for a handful of bips there are multiple ideas that probably would have never existed if it weren't for for the community um I think you know convert is is one of those I don't quite remember who who had uh originally brought it up but you know I think that's a great example of a very high leverage change that was sourced from the community and um I don't know offhand but I I I'm pretty certain that there's definitely at least several others and and you know that share that situation that's a great example and uh yeah man it's tempting to it's tempting to give credit to syncubata my my knee-jerk reaction is to think that he brought it up there's a chance that he might not have brought it up but just drove a lot of the discussion I mean when I think back to those times you know there are a lot of folks that were that were offering really interesting ideas and contributions you know another one is we just put out the um the episode um about the Pod Marketplace you know there are a lot of really great examples of folks coming up with really unique ideas and and you know implementing those and and again to use that term organic doing it in as organic a fashion as possible um you know within that that pre-exploit team and situation exactly yeah I mean maybe just to to put a pin on that uh that topic I think and again this is just how I how I sort of think about it but I think you know perhaps a desirable end state of Beanstalk Farms is one where you know in many ways the you know the contracts the UI the sub graph are are essentially you know close to their final State and we just have a beanstalk Farms you know pays a lightweight set of you know maintainers uh of which there you know there are certainly be processes for so you know for example someone would need discretion over what changes to the get book should be made for example which is like an off chain process that someone would need to manage but um yeah it's really interesting to think about uh you know the way we're you know the Dow has chosen to develop Beanstalk is in this super decentralized fashion and uh it'll be really interesting to see you know what the structure of those various organizations look like a couple years from now completely agreed so what are the different ways that folks can get involved with being stuck now you know from a um a desire to be a you know a core contributor you know doing things like engineering work you know all the way to you know making infographics and you know doing small you know marketing tasks or social media tasks how what are the different ways that that folks can get involved with Beanstalk yeah so we recently added a contributing page to the documentation which uh gives sort of like a lightweight process for this but in essence it's sort of uh you know from from the perspective of you know working on being on Beanstalk via VIA Beanstalk farms uh it's sort of uh reaching out to you know the BFC member in question based on based on your skill set so when it comes to engineering Silo chat is currently the the best person to reach out to you know when you mention you know social media or content creation uh mod on Discord is probably the best person to reach out to um you know and if something else feel free to feel free to shoot me a message on Discord and you know similar to what I was saying earlier it's sort of uh not the most frictionless process at the moment so you know something that you know we're thinking about a lot certainly because for example you know exam again like once the once the UI is open source you shouldn't necessarily need to you know hop on a call with someone and should just be able to you know open a PR and describe the changes so that's sort of how we're thinking about things from uh you know directionally making contributions more more permissionless but those are the folks in general that you can reach out to at the moment and I guess what what I'd like to tack on to that is it sounds like it sounds like there are opportunities kind of uh at all different levels of time availability technical Direction um you know skill set you know it it's not necessarily a situation where like if you want to contribute in a technical fashion you need to necessarily be ready to dedicate 60 hours a week to being a full-time Dev you know it seems like we've got you know everything from from opportunities that probably do look very much like that you know all the way out to like the new bug Bounty program that you know is is much more like self-driven and you know for folks that that have a desire to look through the code and you know and white hats that can find Opportunities to improve and then on the you know the non-technical side you know similar situation if you want to you know contribute to marketing efforts for example you don't necessarily need to go to mod and say hey do you need somebody that can put in 40 50 60 hours a week you can you can find Opportunities through things like Grant programs to contribute from the marketing end or the social media end and there's there's opportunities for for anyone that wants to be involved and that can show that they've got you know that that valuable skill set totally I think a great example is uh the Community member who started a discussion around the sunrise incentivization mechanism and just started working on it and I think that's uh you know that's really fantastic energy that we want to sort of foster as best we can completely agreed well Austin this has been a great discussion I really appreciate you joining us on the podcast thanks for having me Rex you can find Austin on the Beanstalk Discord foreign part is a production of Beanstalk Farms a decentralized autonomous organization you can find us on Twitter Instagram medium Discord and our home on the web at bean.money you can also find me on Twitter at Rex the beat and as a final reminder this podcast is not Financial advice thanks again for listening [Music] foreign