welcome to the beanpod a podcast about decentralized finance and the beanstalk protocol i'm your host rex before we get started we always want to remind everyone that on this podcast we are very optimistic about decentralized finance in general and beanstalk in particular with that being said three things first always do your own research before you invest in anything especially what we talk about here on the show second while you're doing that research try to find as many well-developed opposing viewpoints as possible to get the best overall picture and third never ever invest money that you can't afford to lose or at least be without for a while and with that on with the show [Music] one of the most controversial terms in crypto right now is speculation to some speculation is the draw it's the opportunity to be on the cutting edge of technology the opportunity to develop new businesses and new ways of doing business and certainly the opportunity to become wealthy now all that being said speculation isn't a foundation on which to build future economies the risk and reward propositions that draw many of the bravest souls are not the same ones that will bring the average individual looking to grow their retirement fund and similarly speculative tokens no matter how well advertised or influenced or endorsed aren't going to be what brings mainstream businesses into the crypto space the name of the future game is and indeed has to be utility rather than asking can this concept make people rich founders instead need to be asking can this concept compete with and indeed outperform current ways of doing business speculation is often hollow utility is what drives the future for our project beanstalk's utility comes in the form of positive carry the topic for this episode fluidity money is looking to improve transactional environments by giving random users rewards that can potentially far outweigh the cost of using their system to tell us more mod and i are sitting down with shamir chaudhry a member of the fluidity core team to tell us more about what they're working on shamir welcome to the podcast hey thanks for having me absolutely and mod welcome back happy to be here all right shamir so when i look through fluidity's information i mean this project sounds to me like essentially like a blueprint for an entire economy that like has the goal of like getting people to actually use the tokens that they have as opposed to staking them or or kind of sticking them away to earn yield is is that an accurate understanding yeah i mean that's quite the assessment of what we're building and and i'll further you know go deeper into this but one of the things that at fluidity you know we claim the problem that we're solving is what we've called or coined the term the utility problem and the utility problem is you know in a nutshell the idea that incentive models in crypto are aligned towards speculation and holding on to crypto whereas if we want to make crypto an asset class where people use it we actually have to come up with ideas of how to incentivize people to do so and i think the idea is that people in crypto have just become accustomed to the fact that you need to have an incentive to do something and so we're kind of creating that incentive layer you know and that's what we call it to for people to actually go ahead and utilize cryptocurrencies yeah so tell me about that that incentive if i'm understanding your information right you know there's there's some type of like reward system where if i'm using fluidity there's a chance that i could like you know i hate to say like win some type of i don't know sweepstakes or something but talk us through that that reward system a little bit it's very interesting yeah sure um interesting you say sweepstakes because the original name of fluidity was going to be that um actually i was going to call it sweet steaks just to make it even more nice but we realized that maybe it has a negative connotation so we kind of like went away from that that's that's actually why i hesitated to use the term because i felt like it had a negative connotation go on yeah so i guess i'll explain the way it works and then it'll kind of start piecing the puzzle together so what happens is that people come onto our platform and eventually it'll be any cryptocurrency but we're starting off with stable coins and essentially fluidity is the wrapper you give us one of let's say one usdc and in return you get one fluid usdc now what we do with that usdc is we lend it on a money market or some other yield strategy that it's extremely extremely low risk and that yield essentially goes into a price pool and that price pool is where the yield or the price money comes from so when you've minted a fluid acid like fluid usdc you're free to spend it wherever you'd like with you know one usdc worth of buying power and let's say you buy one dollar worth of eath with it on chain you every time you do a transaction essentially you have a chance of winning money from this price poll now the idea is that once you aggregate you know millions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of users then you create a very interesting system where people that are transacting can be earning anywhere from couple of cents to millions of dollars as part of the transaction so we went with the more i guess i guess i wouldn't say lottery like but more i guess dynamic price system because it actually came from some you know interesting literature i read on slot machines and how they thought about prize making prizes and and a little bit of literature we read on just designing this model so yeah uh it's actually so what really what we came up with was the idea of how do we distribute yield that we've earned from all these deposits to people that are using it that i guess algorithm or formula is like the novel uh feature of fluidity really yeah so if if mod and i are using fluidity to i don't know let's say that let's say i'm um let's say i'm mowing mods lawn every weekend and you know mod says hey i'll i'll pay in crypto and i'm like all right that sounds great and we use fluidity and he is taking his usdc and he's wrapping it into fluid usdc he's paying me every time he's paying me if i'm understanding what you're saying it sounds like he has an opportunity to win something from the prize pool and and would i as the receiver as well yeah so we when we were thinking about designing this we were thinking okay when everybody builds a new payment solution they're thinking you know the sender incentives right like what's why would the consumer use this but they never think about counterparty incentives so actually in fluidity's case you actually get 20 of the price that you want right so let's say he pays you twenty dollars to mow his lawn and wins a thousand bucks as a price you actually get two hundred dollars just for something that's a sweet thing yeah so the idea is let's say you're a merchant and you're getting you know hundreds or thousands of daily inbound transactions now some of those guys will win money and you'll get 20 of that for just accepting fluid assets right so the idea there is we create those feedback loops where you know both sides of the transaction are incentivized but it doesn't end at like just people themselves we're thinking protocols and entire networks would you know be i guess incentivized from a system like this right so if you extrapolate this a little bit and think about per at the protocol level like a amm or a dex right if your counter party is the protocol or the protocol smart contract they actually earn money when you actually send them food assets and when right so this is a an avenue for some protocols to actually start earning revenue without charging fees as well from those 20 percent counterparty incentives we actually um up deep into i'll get into this a bit later as well but we actually released an article where we guesstimated if uni swap you know didn't enable a fee switch but only five percent of the volume of uni swap was through fluid assets they'd actually earn more money from fluid assets than they would from enabling a fee switch so it has some interesting implications you know at scale for a lot of protocols they're looking to earn revenue yeah that is really really interesting and if i again if i'm understanding what you're saying i mean really that also becomes a essentially a zero fee scenario for your users correct well that's where it gets a bit complex right the thing is that you know if you think about a system like this right you know there's a lot of incentive for two bots to come in and send transactions back and forth right if that's how they make money so we have to think about okay you know there needs to be like some sort of thing or a circuit breaker of of sorts that you know stops bots from attacking the system and what we've come up with is essentially what we call the optimistic solution and it's a bit i guess misleading in terms of what people normally mean by optimistic but the idea is that we made an assumption that okay there are normally gas fees attached to any form of transaction on chain and if the gas fees cumulatively on average were more than the yield you'd get from using a fluid asset then essentially if your only intention is to spam transactions you lose money so what i mean by this is that you know if you do a thousand transactions and pay five thousand dollars in gas fees and you're guaranteed by some sort of i guess upper limit to win less than five thousand statistically you would you know go bankrupt great so that's kind of what like the idea with how we protect against bots gotcha and hence there is some upper limits that are part of the algorithm yeah that's that's i mean that's a very interesting and you know now that you mention it i mean that is a it's a an issue that makes sense to to address because it's i mean it would it would make sense that someone could let loose a you know a couple bots that just ring up transactions and and just keep you know hitting that lottery over and over and over again with tiny amounts yeah so and now it starts to seem a little bit counterintuitive because a lot of people might be thinking okay wait every time i use a fluid asset you know i'm kind of losing money which kind of makes sense from one like i guess line of thinking but the way we're thinking about is okay if you do a swap on uni swap and you pay 20 dollars in gas fees you wouldn't have done it if you didn't think you'd get at least 20 worth of value out of doing that transaction right so using a fluid asset and let's say you get on average two dollars back or something you know it's still better than using whatever you were gonna use right because you would have paid the same in gas fees so i guess in terms of you gas fees and any other fees those don't exist and by using fluid assets so it's kind of like the same and that's kind of the idea here is like okay you're technically expected value positive from using a fluid acid as long as your intention was to do a genuine transaction gotcha and so really the price pool essentially offsets the cost that you are incurring by performing the transaction using a fluid asset hence your ability to circuit break yeah so on average that'll be the case you'll get some sort of like kick back whereas but there will be some people right that are you know that are on the right side of the normal distribution curve that will win you know a lot more money than they pay in gas phase and that's the part of the system where it's gamified where hey every time i do a transaction i could potentially win a million dollars under some circumstances right and that's the fascinating idea here is that that probability that hey you could win it so it actually came from from me at reading this book about lotteries and casinos and and designing them and all that i guess the knowledge and literature behind it and and there's this i guess quote there or this comment made by the author and it and it said something like you know people don't play the lottery for winning the prize they actually played for hope it actually provides a service of hope and i think such a fascinating idea where you know you can that's why most people play because they're stuck in i guess the endless rat race and they're like okay this could be my ticket out and just that you know i guess whatever it makes them feel is enough for them to keep continuing their purchases and and so that's why we kind of went with the more i guess it's just like exponential price system with a tier-based price system because we can kind of replicate that in in some manner without the parasitic part of like draining people's money gotcha so so tell me about the that tiered system cool so when one was when we had to come up with how do we distribute this money you know one way is that everybody gets an equal amount based on some sort of parameter the other was okay we can make a gamified that we have a tier system so we our researcher his name is eric really really smart guy and you know he was reading through some papers of this very i guess it was an old german uh paper and it and it was about lottery design and and it was like you know and we kind of read it and we extrapolated and repurposed it for our protocol and so it's i mean it's very simple in the idea that when you use a fluid asset we have different tiers of prices right from like couple cents to a million dollars and and the idea is that these are six tiers so we're going to start off with six tiers but you can change that through governance and essentially every time a transaction happens the user in a sense picks six balls from like you know this i guess more a metaphorical pool of balls right you pick six balls right and the number of matches and we pick six balls and the number of matches you get is the tier of prizes you the tier you're in so if you get one one match between our balls you get you know one the the first tier prize which is like five cents and then if you get two matches so on right so in our economics white paper on our website we kind of explain what this looks like so every time you do a transaction what happens is that a table gets generated and that table has a probability and an associated payout for each of the tiers and you can then see okay this is the probability of you winning five cents the probability of you winning 15 cents and so on so on average 60 to 70 percent of the transactions will win something so yeah i mean every other transaction at least you will be getting some sort of price which is pretty pretty cool in my opinion yeah that's very cool so you're still in development is that correct or did you say that you're you've you've launched on some test nets or where where are you at in terms of the project development so we've we've been on roxton and the salon devnet for you know six seven months now i think and the plan is to launch i mean that next month you know hoping the crypto market or ethereum doesn't you know self-implode um but yeah i mean we've been testing it for a while we've had you know multiple you know thousands of people out here somehow tested and yeah millions of transactions going through the contract so we have glove good data indicating that hey this thing actually seems to be working um and yeah so the idea now is to actually you know put it on mainland and and test it for what it is that's awesome so the transactions they've had thus far i mean primarily are they like user-to-user or do you have any protocols or other you know larger organizations involved in some of that so those early on rups and we created a uni swap and sushi swap pool for people to actually you know use and swap the fluid assets on so that that was pretty cool and yeah i mean it was interesting to see the uni swap pool winning prizes and stuff so um that's how it's on robson um so you know the i right now what we're working on is getting more use cases and stuff happening but i guess you know in the early days when we do launch the first order use case would be like trading on dexes and and you know hopefully people realize wait a second if i trade using fluid usbc to eat instead of usbc to eat them vice versa i could actually earn yield you know and and that's nothing of an incentive to people to start thinking about changing how they transact if i'm understanding correctly the prize money comes from staked assets okay correct yeah uh is there an incentive to stake because because the prices go to who spends the fluid assets but those were like staking i guess the way we've thought about is that liquidity comes naturally as a second order effect of the increased demand for utility so you know a lot of times if let's say there's a lot of demand for you know spending these fluid assets right for them to exist someone needs to meet them initially right and and that's kind of what we're thinking about is that we can bootstrap some of this liquidity ourselves and and you know even reward people for it but let's say there's a lot of demand for spending you know fluid usbc and there's not enough in circulation what's going to happen is that the price of fluid ufcc will go above a dollar and then you'll have arbitrages that will you know profit from that and have spent a lot of fluid usdc to sell above you know the dollar parity so we think that might be a way for us to kind of like just keep you know you know get liquid if there's a demand for that utility of that fluid acid if that makes sense uh and jamie i'm looking at you at the white paper and i see that you have if i'm not mistaken is this a governance uh that has uh an emission schedule yes so is this who who is is the governance talking distributed to and is it distributed to those who are providing liquidity no so we've oh that's a good question okay so as part of what we've built right we realized that wait a second if we've created a system that allows for the fair distribution of yield we can piggyback off of this i guess you know system or this foundation to distribute other things right and we realized that hey wait a second we could distribute governance tokens to people for you know using fluid assets right and and that's how we're thinking about distributing most of our governance tokens is actually we've come up with a term called utility mining and we see it as potentially an improvement on some parts of liquidity mining where you know for the very first time your users of a protocol can earn governance tokens and for them to earn these tokens they have to actually do something with your protocol or your token itself right so the idea is when people use fluid usdc on different you know decentralized exchanges marketplaces wherever on chain they actually get a bonus you know payout in native tokens the very same way yield provider or liquidity providers would so just to confirm my understanding the governance stocking is also distributed in a similar way to how the pool price is the more you use the fluid assets you might get a chance to get some of the governance token yeah so it's distributed in that fashion yes um and the way we the reason we rationalized that was that you know i mean what better way to distribute your own token and then the thing that you've created because what we then realized is that we can go to protocols and help them distribute their tokens through the system that we've created so an example i could give you is imagine you have an amm right and this mm wants to attract users right normally what they would do is they would run some sort of liquidity mining program and get liquidity now the issue is that that doesn't necessarily mean i demand an increased demand for their you know trading volume nor does it mean that your actual community and users will be getting this token so you have two i guess areas of disalignment with your community and and your objectives right so the idea with utility mining is that if they rewarded the users for using you know their their exchange they'll naturally get liquidity because if there's higher trading volumes because there's more demand for using it um then liquidity providers will actually you know come in to like earn those ex earn that extra revenue but secondly you know your actual users for the very first time are getting token so if i'm a user of this amm i'm now getting tokens right unlike in the previous example with liquidity mining where a lot of times it's mercenary capital or just protocols they're plugging in they have nothing to do with the you know the success of the amm and so on so the idea is that we can then go to protocol and say hey look we've built an interesting token distribution model would you like to distribute your tokens to your actual users when they use you know fluid assets through your protocol and we're actually getting interest for this right so you know there's protocols that kind of stuck in the sense that you know they can't compete with uni swap as the leading emm but and they have no way of like differentiating themselves in the saturated market so if they're looking for more user order flow they can now section essentially incentivize that user order flow by you know offering their rewards like this if that makes sense yeah and you mentioned that the initial liquidity will be bootstrapped do you do you already have an idea what is uh the starting liquidity i not sure we'll be using some of the funds that we've raised to bootstrap some of it add some of it to the price pool to make things going but yes thank you yeah no of course yeah so shamir what is the primary function of the governance token is it to make decisions around the lottery pools themselves is it to change frequency payout talk us through that a little bit if you would yeah so there's two things happening here um one is obviously you know changing and like you know dictating the parameters of the protocol but second thing we realized was very very interesting you know we were looking at curve wars and you know the idea of curve wars and why protocols are paying so much in bribes to the you know convicts token holders essentially an affected curve token holders to vote for them in particular ways right now the curve wars is an interesting idea because you know if we dictate curve apys uh or higher emissions for the curve token then you know protocols can get liquidity and improve liquidity and this is extremely valuable to them right so i i went to thinking well okay if you think about it curve wars has a very limited i guess scope in comparison to the wider crypto space even though it's such a big idea right you know the outcome of the curve wars doesn't affect you genius swap creating volumes it necessarily doesn't even affect useful liquidity it doesn't affect openc it doesn't affect anything else other than just the liquidity of a few stable coins that participate yet it's such a valuable you know idea or our system so imagine if you could through our system change the probability of payouts right through governance so imagine if we said this right you have two mm you need swap or sushi swap and if you chose to swap on your fluid acid on sushi swap instead of uni swap you have a double chance of winning the million dollars right so if i'm a rational user and i'm thinking or if even if i'm an algorithm and i know this i'm thinking wait a second why would i trade a mini swap when i have a double chance of getting a million dollars if i trade on sushi swap instead right and given the fact that for most trades you're gonna get almost the same quote for most you know pairs especially the larger look like you know the more popular ones there's in effect no difference trading between the two so in those scenarios what we're thinking is that if you use an order flow enough of it is incentivized to stop using uni swap and then hop on to sushi swap or whatever amm that has better probability this could actually open a very interesting dynamic of you know what we call the fluidity wars that could potentially come because for the very first time user or protocols have an existential crisis because their order flow or their customer flow is now being outbid by other protocols that are essentially you know incentive incentivizing this order flow you know through either modifying our governance or playing a part in our governance or through their you know participating in utility mining that's that is very interesting so do you see a potential secondary market for your governance tokens or is there anything on the horizon and along those lines um what do you mean by like a second secondary market when we talk about curb and convex what what goes through my mind are you know or the potential of individuals either aggregating governance tokens or trading them potentially to leverage them to essentially run the bribe system and the other thing that that's spinning in my mind is if i want to be able to potentially influence how these pool decisions are made or or frequencies getting hold of governance tokens is going to be in my best interest so is there do you see a future scenario where individuals may buy and sell governance tokens on their own yeah yeah i i do see that and i also see a scenario where you know like very similar to curve it's in the best interest for a lot of dows to actually you know participate and have influence in in governance but it's not just you know the stakes aren't just like the liquidity of a few select stable points but the stakes are the you know the existentialness of the entire protocol because if let's say you know there's so much of an incentive to not use uni swap any longer the fact is that you know their their rationale for using yeast fob is no longer as much as you know the incentive provided for not using it because if you think about it you know liquidity mining is is interesting because when when when the higher apys have been offered from other protocols people you know provide liquidity but essentially it's just you know a reward for the risk that you're taking but there's never been any sort of reward for risk of overflow or for using protocols so by default many people would just use the least risky protocol or the the one with the highest reputation at unisa so essentially this kind of also acts as a way of subsidizing risk from you know that a bit higher riskier protocols that don't have that reputation um you know that uni swap may have or some of the other likely leading you know protocols within their categories they have so that's also something interesting you know and and yeah i mean the what we think about is that of course probably there will be you know markets of like things like convex or cartels being formed to basically you know have influence and we thought about this whole cartel narrative as well like how cartels could come in a system like that potentially could be like let's say three dexes that you know you know accumulate so many tokens that they keep putting themselves in uh that they keep voting themselves and as the largest you know uh are the winners all the time that could happen so we're thinking about ways to limit that as well but the idea is that if this plays out in the way that we think you might this could have a much bigger impact in the crypto ecosystem that and any other sort of primitive or product that might have been created because if users don't use exchanges that don't win these votes then those exchanges could lose out on user order flow and everything i see on your website that you have two fluid assets die and um usdc yeah uh on the tesla yeah on the test yeah is this what you're planning to launch with or are you considering other other fluid aspects yeah we definitely are considering other ones we've integrated fracs uh usdt um but and you know obviously looking at others even being them as well and and will all fluid assets share the pool price or with each fluid asset have its own you know so each fluid asset has its own pool because the thing is that when you deposit let's say usdc you get paid in uscc on the money market itself so you know there's no i guess cross contamination risk that you know if you're using fluid uscc you don't want to get tether because if you don't like tether for example and vice versa so if we were to talk about a fluid being then um and i'm not sure how familiar you are with bean stock so bean is the stable coin uh should buy bean stock and then the silo is basically where bean holders can stick or deposit their beans and then earn uh being seniority so a fluid bean would be uh one that a user would deposit a bean to uh to fluidity and then fluidity would deposit in the silo and then it would issue a fluid beam and then users who use that fluid being might win whatever senior age or yield that is issued by the beam that's in the cycle am i capturing all of this correctly that and that's how it would work and the idea is that those users are incentivized to use bean essentially because through fluid beam so is it is it a scenario is there a scenario where like i could take bean and i could put it through the fluidity system end up with fluid being and then it sounds like i could either obviously use that for transactions or could i potentially put that back in the silo mod is that where you're getting at is is no you won't be able to deposit the fluid beam because that's not white listed so what you will do is you will you will use that fluid beam as a currency uh and of course correctly from wrong uh shamir and as you use it uh who someone from those who are using uh you know fluid beans will will win the price of you know the senior age uh that's by the side so you won't earn your normal senior age but you might win a chance to win more than what you would usually otherwise have yeah and and the thing is like let's say you were using bean to pay for something right normally let's say just the bean itself right you wouldn't get anything extra per se right so the idea is that the people that use fluid beam they're learning for using it and and if it's in their best interest to use it then they're pushing to use it in all their day-to-day things like even payments or just trading it or even like buying nfts even like in in those cases as well i think this brings us back to um the comparison of pull together uh which is like uh you know many people can deposit in the silo and then one person will win that yield uh but the case with fluidity is who uses it exactly and also if you think about the pool together case right and this is very a significant difference and pulled together the reason why we feel it may not have taken off is there's just too much opportunity cost you know you could potentially put your money in and get nothing for a very very long time or you could you know farm like this week's shiba inu ponzi coin for three thousand percent you know ap whites right so that opportunity cost i think is one of the reasons why you know that didn't work out too well whereas in fluidity if you really really think about it there's no opportunity cost because as soon as you get fluid whatever you can spend it and and your incentive is to spend it so in a sense it's a little bit like a hot potato because as soon as someone gets it their best interest is to spend it whereas in other cases their best interest is to hold on to it like any other staked form of asset so that's a differentiating factor of like how people are thinking about fluid assets in general and just to confirm um holding the fluid asset doesn't add to any of your chances of winning it's purely about how fa how often you spend it so in terms of holding we're coming up with a part of the algorithm where doubts etc could hold on to it and improve the the payout of their protocol so for example it's if sushi dal or sushi's treasury or uni swaps treasury is holding on to a bunch of fluid assets just for as a diversification and essentially providing liquidity in a sense to fluidity their protocol users will actually get a higher probability of winning just ever so slightly so this might be an interesting initiative for protocols to take to like improve the chances for their users to win something and by providing liquidity to fluidity so in those cases yes but for most cases where it's a small amount your best interest is to actually go ahead and spend it um whereas in in other cases your best interest is to hold on to it like steak assets or or any form of other yield bearing aspect yeah it's interesting um see now i appreciate you you guys walking me through this this idea of this you know beanstalk fluidity interaction and what it says to me is that you know if i've got if i've got beans if i am if i'm holding them the best place for me to hold them is in the silo because they can achieve passive yield if i'm spending them sounds like the best option or a really good option would be to go through fluidity and wrap them and then spend them because then in the transaction itself i've got the opportunity you know to potentially receive a reward yeah and and this reward could be a life changing enough i think and that's why it's so fascinating because if your intention is to spend being or any other currency and you get more of it you know to the point where you might you know improve your financial outcomes by doing nothing extra i think that's such a fascinating idea that we've enabled and in a very general purpose way right so eventually the idea is that you could use it on practically any protocol because it's a regular token in standard erc20 or whatever chain it's on so there's no complex integrations required from counterparties either so shamir when can we expect uh you guys to go live well hopefully starting next month but towards the end of it you know um if all things go well nice nice well we'll definitely keep an eye on and then we'll look uh we'll look to that awesome yeah and we'd love to do things with beanstalk as well um that could be another discussion as well we can have later sure yeah i mean it's so mod you just mentioned that idea of of the white list and and schmears you were talking about that idea of um you know working with with other taos or other groups it's it's hard not to think man i feel like there might be an opportunity there somehow you know for if their assets being held that silo is a pretty pretty enticing option for for holding assets in the meantime you know between transactions that's yeah it just seems like it seems like we're finally in a space where there are a lot of really good ideas that are starting to potentially mesh together you're seeing those use cases intertwine a little bit more and uh it's it's an exciting future so shamir take me through this here um for us to have a fluid bean and for there to be a chance for someone who uses a fluid beam for transaction to win something there needs to be some beans that are already you know deposited on the side of correct uh and uh sorry deposited with fluidity and fluidity are then depositing in the side is that correct my question is how would will you attract the initial uh bean liquidity that you're gonna get the pot price from so i guess to answer your question i'd like to you know propose the idea where people in the beanstalk community or whatever community they'd be in their best interest to actually earn being you know for using their b now the idea is for them is that the way they do it is that you know they they could help bootstrap these pools and our goal is to be working with the communities and educating them about okay how they could benefit from this um and and yeah and what fluidity could be doing as well is you know we can help like we could put some of our funds towards you know starting a pool price going as well just so it promotes or nudges the initial community but but the idea here is that you know once like hopefully the beanstalk community or whatever community sees enough value there that hey wait a second i could just mint fluid beam and use it because i was going to buy something else and in exchange i will potentially earn yield and hopefully this boot you know creates those feedback loops that grow it to a decent size enough that it's actually pretty interesting to use that for some other protocols we can be working with the utility mining side of it or product where users might be thinking i like this protocol i want more exposure in their tokens i'll be using it so hence i'll you know mint more fluid or version of their token to get more tokens so yeah i mean it is you know the chicken or the egg sometimes but i think like you know working closely with protocols in their communities and making them understand like potentially some ways they can accrue value from a system like this could be enough for to get some people interested and like started integrating growing this got it so shamir we've just got a few minutes left i want to want to kind of hand the mic over to you i mean you have any closing thoughts anything you'd like to share you know with our listeners well i i would like you know make people ponder the idea of of what you know such a primitive you know existing could mean and the implications of how they start thinking about you know spending cryptocurrencies or just utility in general because you know we talked a lot about d5 use cases and free to and like you know dexes amms and stable points but if you really think about it if you know if all your transactions or all forms of money transfer or value transfer world's yield bearing this also implies things like you know nft's rights if i purchase an nft with a fluid asset me and the counterparty are exposed to yield opportunities for that action um you know if i obviously buy or sell something but even if i play a game rant if in some games when you're buying and selling in-game items or or whatever within the game those all transactions could also be you know yield bearing through fluid assets and eventually you know what we want to do is start you know changing perceptions about what money could be in terms of when people think about spending it because right now when you think about spending money most people have kind of like a negative association where they're like crap i'm gonna lose money but who knows that maybe you know this idea really like grows potentially you know there will be a group of people for the very first time that i think you hate with a second spending money reward rewards me and it's just the behavior of money that money itself rewards you for using it and and yeah i mean it seems like a very broad idea or a thought but i think it's it's so interesting because once you start thinking of such implications of a primitive it can go endless so a lot of times what we think will happen is is people won't even know it but they'll be interacting with the fluid acid some part of middleware so i'll give you the example of an aggregator right and the aggregators the way they work is that they find the best route possible with the highest expected outcome for whatever trade route you want to do but you know as part of their route construction they could also integrate a fluid acid let's say you want usdc and you want ethan in in the end you could do go from usdc to east but imagine if aggregators realized that way uscc to fluid usdc to flu to eat could potentially provide you a better route because you're going you're that interaction with that fluid asset could mean a price amount and on average the payout is higher than not doing it and people won't even know it but they're earning yield for for those type of interactions right and and it's middleware um one thing that we we were discussing with you know like early conversations with even like options protocols is that when people deposit into their vault so they could also be using fluid assets and the option protocol would be getting the you know the stable coin of choice but just because they deposited a fluid asset in that options protocol they actually now have a chance of winning things like gambling as well like you know you can double dip on making every time you make a bet if you make a bet using a fluid asset you could potentially win a prize just for making it that bad you know so things like that could be very very interesting and like implications of of it could be endless um you know so if anybody listening to this or even you guys you know i have any idea of or any interesting thing that you want us to explore we're all ears and yeah and i think it's an interesting or very exciting frontier that we're you know digging at shushmat it sounds like they should be talking to the root crew you know mr manifold and and and company because that is a that idea of you know nested opportunity let's say is that's really fascinating we'll definitely pass uh the message and and they'll also listen to the podcast that's perfect well shamir um thank you so much for for joining us this morning where you are this evening where where we are we appreciate your time of course guys i appreciate you hearing us out thank you shamir and wish you all the best uh with with with the launch next month hopefully awesome yeah yeah fingers crossed and mod thank you as always for joining pleasure you can find shamir on twitter at shamir x that's s-h-a-h-m-e-e-r-x and fluidity on twitter at fluidity money you can also find fluidity on the web at fluidity.money [Music] the beampod is a production of beanstalk farms a decentralized autonomous organization you can find us on twitter instagram medium discord and our home on the web at bean.money you can also find me on twitter at rexthebeam and as a final reminder this podcast is not financial advice thanks again for listening [Music] you