🎙️

S1E10: Larry from Pickle Finance

Date
June 20, 2022
Timestamps
0:00 Intro • 1:55 Pickle Finance intro • 2:50 What's the advantage of a system that auto-compounds? • 5:35 Pickle terminology and process • 9:17 How long before a user sees a benefit to Pickle's aggregation service? • 10:48 Farming analogies • 13:50 Founding of Pickle • 18:32 Post-exploit Beanstalk • 21:52 Barn Raise • 34:55 What is the community sentiment on Terra? • 40:00 Terra collapse effect on Pickle • 42:50 Cross-chain Pickle • 51:00 Beanstalk contributors • 52:40 Outro
Type
The Bean Pod

Recordings

Notes

What is Pickle Finance?

  • An automatic yield aggregating service. They curate yield farming opportunities for users and help auto compound rewards into users’ deposits so they don’t have to hold the governance token if they don’t want to. They can just stack whatever currency they deposited.
  • Users’ earnings are accelerated due to auto-compounding and gas savings. Also offers convenience.

Pickle terminology and process

  • Pickle Jars are equivalent to vaults in many other protocols.
  • PICKLE token incentives are a series of gauge contracts which other protocols leverage to give out their token incentives, which was adopted from Curve.
  • DILL is a voting escrow system (also adopted from Curve), where users can lock their PICKLE tokens in exchange for governance voting rights, profit sharing, and boosted PICKLE emissions.

How long before a user sees a benefit to Pickle's aggregation service?

  • Highly dependent on the APY of the LP, but it could take a month to a few months.

Founding of Pickle

  • Grew out of a hacked protocol. Andre from Yearn came in and architected a solution, relying a lot on Curve’s base and the community adopted it.
  • Banteg and Andre were involved from the moment of the hack, helping with mitigation and potential recovery.

Beanstalk Barn Raise

  • Will start June 6th.
  • Fertilizer tokens can be bought with a specific yield percentage incorporated into them, and that yield percentage will change over time. During the first part, those Fertilizer tokens can be bought at 500% yield. Eventually the interest rate will settle at 20%.
  • Fertilizer holders will get 1/3 of new Bean mints.
  • Fertilizer holders get to receive mints much sooner than new pod buyers.
  • Existing Silo deposits will remain locked until Fertilizer holders get paid back. The lock up starts to loosen itself as Fertilizer holders are paid back, and more liquidity is made available for individuals who decide to leave the protocol.
  • People can exit early and take a haircut, which will lower the amount that needs to be recapitalized before remaining holders are made whole.

What is the community sentiment on Terra?

  • Has caused our community to take a step back and carefully look at the project in general and how we’re approaching certain things.
  • Hopefully given us a chance to build bonds with the Terra community.

Terra collapse effect on Pickle

  • Had a bunch of mirrored assets (on Mirror Protocol) like Tesla or silver, which unfortunately went to zero because they were paired with UST. So some users unfortunately suffered losses from that.
  • A lot of community members took a big hit.

Cross-chain Pickle

  • Makes themselves relevant to the largest possible number of users.
  • They look for all the available yield opportunities on different chains to include them and drive more attention and deposits.
  • Not that hard to get on all those chains because they’re all EVM compatible. You just switch the chain ID.
  • Lots of hype around Optimism with the airdrop, so they’re looking to build on top of whatever farming opportunities are offered there.
  • Yield has dropped a lot recently, but the voting escrow model is promising.

Transcript

welcome to the beanpod a podcast about decentralized finance and the beanstalk protocol i'm your host rex before we get started we always want to remind everyone that on this podcast we are very optimistic about decentralized finance in general and beanstalk in particular with that being said three things first always do your own research before you invest in anything especially what we talk about here on the show second while you're doing that research try to find as many well-developed opposing viewpoints as possible to get the best overall picture and third never ever invest money that you can't afford to lose or at least be without for a while and with that on with the show [Music] on this episode of the pod first we have a new voice in the studio dumpling a fellow farmer from the beanstalk core team is joining me and together he and i will be talking with larry the cucumber from pickle finance pickle finance is an automatic yield aggregating service and we'll chat with larry about what exactly that means and how pickle's unique we'll also be talking about beanstalk's upcoming recapitalization effort also known as the barn raise which is getting underway on june 6th so again it's a pleasure to welcome dumpling into the studio dumpling great to have you join us today hey how's it going rex and the other is a special guest so we've got larry the cucumber joining us from pickle finance larry how are you i'm good man thanks thanks for having me absolutely our pleasure so this is really a good opportunity for us just learn a little bit more about pickle and learn about you know what you do and um how members from our community might get involved and and just to just to get a little bit of extra exposure so larry would you mind uh starting us off by just just telling us a little bit about pickle finance absolutely um pickle finance for um those of the listeners who aren't aware falls under the broader category of yield farming aggregators so we are similar to protocols such as yearn harvest finance beefy finance and the gist of what we all do is we curate yield yield farming opportunities for users and help auto compound rewards into users based deposits so that you know they don't have to hold the governance token um if they don't want to they can just stack e stack btc stablecoin or whatever whatever else it is they deposited i really like this idea of auto compounding it sounds like something that the pickle really focuses on what are what are the advantages of having a system that auto compounds yeah so compounding interest is is one of those big effects um you know if anyone's ever played with one of those calculators um at a certain point your your gains uh become more exponential if if your assets are moved back into being productive rather than you know staying stationary as uh as an untouched uh token reward um so for example uh you you're depositing stable coin through pickle uh and accumulating crv tokens um if you were to do that on your own you know it might be a month before you reinvest those rewards or do something else with it but we because of you know our socialized costs we're allowed to do that more often and turn those crv rewards back into your base deposit and stake them again so that those additional rewards are are now earning even more um so it accelerates users rate of earnings um there's gas savings from not having to do these transactions yourself which can be significant on main net and just the convenience of things not having to watch the market you know trying to time time yourselves etc yeah admittedly i mean there's i think there's a lot of folks that are in the d5 community right now um that are are very active in terms of their approach to investment into learning about new projects and finding new ways to to leverage and to to build funds but it seems to me like as defy continues to grow and especially as more passive users start to look to defy uh for opportunities to invest seems like those you know the the the term that you use that i like so much is that the set it forget it systems seems like there's going to be a lot of value in those systems from our passive investors that that yeah that's exactly right um a lot of people don't have the time to actively manage their their farms and so the sudden forget it aspect is a very compelling one for a lot of users so how about you talk us through some of these components there's there's it at beanstalk firearms we're familiar with a lot of um unique terminology and kind of interesting ways that things are named um looking at the information for pickle kind of a similar scenario a lot of really interestingly named components how about you walk us through um really how do we do it from like the basic user experience so um interacting with with jars and the pickle farm and the different tokens yeah absolutely as i do that i will share sort of other equivalent terms in d5 so um so you know people can make an analogy that way um so the first step is a user finds a farming opportunity they like say you know um dumpling mentioned alchemics eth um lp he his goal is to accumulate more of this token pair and so going through pico he would deposit the sushi swap alcx eth lp token that's you know returned on supplying liquidity on the sushi swap and and sorry and that goes into a pickle jar which is equivalent to the term vault in many other d5 protocols and so at that point dumpling can just rest easy because pickle will periodically harvest alcx rewards um split them into alcx and eth and redeposit and at the end of the day you know maybe a month two months six months later uh dumpling chooses to withdraw and he will have received more lp tokens than he started off with um another component of the systems are the pico token incentives and one obtains those by depositing in our farms um these aren't you know too novel it's it's it's really just a gauge contract or a series of gauge contracts which other protocols leverage to sort of um give out their token incentives uh and that was adopted from curve um and you know speaking of curve we we have adopted or we were the first adopter of their um voting escrow system which we call dill whereby users get to lock their pickle tokens in exchange for governance voting rights profit sharing and boosted pickle emissions so you know big kudos to curve for kicking that off and now almost every protocol is adopting that because you know we've we've seen that it most effectively aligns long-term incentives so larry um just to totally echo what you're saying my alchemics eth you know that i had in sushi i hadn't touched that in probably a year and i had been you know i had been building up rewards but you know it's the sort of thing where i think you know i had about 300 of rewards and i knew i'd have to pay like 20 or 25 of gas just to kind of claim it and move it around and i just thought you know i'll just let it sit there but now that i've you know now i'm pretty excited because now so i'm me and a bunch of other people who have these same tokens are all being combined together and just for one gas fee is that that's essentially what's happening essentially yeah um everything's socialized and there's you know cost saving benefits to that so i know in your docs you mentioned there's a certain amount of time that it you know um compounding interest takes time how long do you think before i'd see any you know any kind of real benefit um that that is heavily dependent on the apr of the underlying yield opportunity so when the alchemics eat farming was giving out you know 100 plus apy the the compounding effects are very significant and you know it becomes parabolic much sooner now i think it sits around somewhere like 30 40 percent um and i i can't give you an answer off the top of my head but it's it you know it will take perhaps a month or two to or you know maybe three uh for the the benefits of compounding to really kick in but you know all the while you are still accumul accumulate you know benefiting from the other um features of auto compounding such as um you know your value continues to increase uh you don't have to do crap it will do it for you yeah no that's that's great i mean that that's pretty much exactly what i need uh and you know my my fees.wtf uh number is is much too high so anything i can do to reduce those gas fees yeah yeah that was that was that was fun when they did an air drop but yeah it didn't really amount to anything well i think there is there's an interesting moment you know when i'm reading through these things and when i you know when i'm reading through your docs when i'm so used to the analogies you know and the the being analogy the bean with i'm larry i'm not sure how familiar you are with with beanstalk but you know we have a lot of farming terminology as well i i you guys are rather um i don't want to say esoteric but you guys are it's it's a complicated system at least at least at least to me and and i'm like you know this isn't just some fork ponzi this is you know this this thing works uh i gotta like but but it's too it was too complex for me to understand and you know commit to getting into so so i i do it's very complicated i will leave i will struggle a bit i i apologize i think the funny thing is that you're like my question for you is you started with a pretty simple analogy description and when did that start getting away from you like with us you know we kept introducing new things and now we have fertilizer and you know and it's like humidity and so once you start creating this kind of world it just can get really like it's really funny and uh it does help explain things but also as things get increasingly complex like you have to kind of shoehorn everything into you know these these analogies and it becomes kind of uh kind of funny did you have dill in mind in the in the beginning or when did that come to be um not in the very beginning but there were you know this was sort of in the earlier days of um finding a balance between you know token value accrual um governance alignment of governance incentives and um and that of the community as well and we we saw the success that curve had with their token you know their token wasn't great in the beginning people forget that right because right now it's such a powerhouse and such a model for like d5 to follow but at first it was you know people just farmed it and dumped it but then but then they they introduced this the the voting escrow model and you know it did wonders it for the for the token for the value of the token because you know everything all the value all the profit all the governance accrued to um those who committed uh their crv tokens to the protocol long term um so that was a lot of verbage sorry but it was we saw that and decided um the same for pickle we had tried other things such as you know you stake your pickle naked pickle and you earn eat rewards um that wasn't quite good enough people could you know leave um people might not be voting in the long term interests because um you know for reasons i've mentioned and yeah so so you know there came dale yeah so was this was this a project that grew out of a community desire or was it more of an opportunity that you personally saw how how did what's the genesis of the project how does that that all come together well yeah how it arose is is interesting it was um i guess i would say i would say it was really catalyzed by uh the fact we got hacked for uh back in back in november of 2020 um and it was sort of a way to reboot the protocol um and so andre from yearn um came in and helped sort of uh architect that solution you know relying a lot on on um on curves base and and you know we adopted it it has it had really good uptake you know over 50 of the pickle in circulation is locked um so yeah it was that was sort of the impetus for it and and i'd say that you know for for that motivation it worked well yeah i would say that you know folks at beanstalk farms would definitely that would resonate you know the idea of having a scenario that's probably less than ideal you know in our case it was a governance exploit you know being an opportunity to to kind of take a fresh look at a project and find out ways to make it better find ways to get new people involved and really even use kind of an unfortunate circumstance as a way to to build and to grow yeah no i i just want to say it's it's a little unrelated how much respect i have for you guys the beanstalk team and community for you know still kicking and you know committing to um you know a raise to recover lost capital to you know return to the success you had before um much appreciated that's it's really admirable given that given the size and you know and and even more admirable seeing that you know it could succeed the the really cool thing i think is all the people who have jumped in um just like like you mentioned andre um how did uh how did you guys come to recruit him or did you know him uh beforehand or the i'd say the defy community um of founders at least was a lot smaller back then um so so they were involved yearn uh specifically i guess more banteg and andre were involved from the moment of the hack helping with um mitigation um helping with um you know potential recovery helping with the debt token um so that was that was really good support we were received from them and that was just a logical way for them to lend a hand it was it was really appreciated yeah well that's kind of what we what we found too is um after the exploit we were just you know like everyone was just coming to to pitch in and help you know within the team and and from outside too and it was just a really great uh outpouring so that was uh it's a it's pretty awesome when you see that it's really surprising in a in a community where some of the underlying philosophies are a lot around personal interest you know the idea that you know we we build systems that are supposed to be robust enough to where someone's personal interest not only won't necessarily wreck things but but may make systems stronger to see how many individuals when something bad happens say hey what can i do to help you know how how can i pitch in is there something you need it's uh it's really really exciting to see folks that are trying to come together and build unique solutions out of some of these really difficult situations mm-hmm well said well said yeah what which particular parties you know hoped uh helped you guys a lot yeah um when i think about some of the groups that were really helpful groups or individuals are really helpful right after everything happened really the first group that comes to my mind are the omis so we've got a bunch of folks that are friends from olympus and a number of them jumped right in and started offering suggestions or being willing to help or give advice and they were they were great uh dumpling anybody in particular come to mind for you yeah well i mean i can think of there was quite a few people who were involved you know involved in the project and i might not want to call out specifically but that were you know we're kind of taking some time to themselves and weren't you know weren't working you know you know had kind of scaled down quite a bit who really came back and ramped up which was just awesome to see uh be just you know at the time of need um these so sorry these are community devs yeah community devs and and and folks who were just like oh okay i hear the call i'm coming back you know like you know whatever is needed and then there was also um i you know i one really great voice was uh caesar from uh creator dao uh who was in our war room you know when we were trying to just figure out what the hell to do like the day of and he was just a really calm voice of reason that i really you know was really awesome a lot of the guys from uh the uh bong bears were you know had some really good ideas and were in there for like four or five hours and i i think they were investors but i didn't even you know and then there was just a bunch of other it was just there's probably a hundred people in that war room just you know bouncing ideas around for the entire it was probably 12 hours i mean it was just you know it was the sort of thing you'd clock out for a second you know grab something to eat come back and people were still bouncing ideas around and trying to figure out what to do and it was just everyone was there you know everyone was there and it was awesome to see yeah and some really unique ideas um i know that the the the evolution of the barn rays has been affected by a lot of the conversations that have happened you know publius and the core dev team have been steering that ship primarily but listening to the community as conversations have happened and i can think of at least a handful of changes probably let's say four or five changes that are they're substantive that have happened through conversations either during that initial period or um at ant universities or other q and a's that have happened since where someone will say hey have you thought of this and you know you you kind of hear publius perk up a little bit and say you know while it's a really interesting point and next thing you know that that individual's been brought in to you know to kind of flesh out a little bit more detail and and some type of change has been made to the barn rays and it really looks like you know that that process has become very much community driven community owned with some solid leadership from the middle of the protocol that's awesome to hear man can you um can you describe for me the in a nutshell the the barn raises i i know it i understand it it takes place in a series of phases um and and it has evolved correct yeah yeah so dumpling i'll i'll start off and then you can you can let me know if i miss anything or get anything wrong so so the process of the barn raise gonna start here um so if we're taping right now on june 3rd it's going to start on june 6th and the first phase is essentially so the the token that were they were using for the recapitalization effort which we're calling the barn rays is is called fertilizer and basically the idea is that these fertilizer tokens can be bought with a specific um yield percentage incorporated into them automatically and that yield percentage will change over time so during the first part of the first phase of the barn raise which is going to be basically from june 6 until early july that those fertilizer tokens can be bought at a 500 percent yield so they're what we're calling humidity the humidity for those tokens is 500 so you know invest a hundred dollars get your hundred dollars back plus 500 in in yield once the protocol comes back on in early july that yield will decrease over time and so eventually that goes from i think the first cut goes from 500 to 250 percent and then it slopes kind of steadily from there down to 20 percent and it maintains that 20 humidity indefinitely as long as there are fertilizer tokens available to be purchased after it gets to 20 it will stay there at 20. um so the um that yield is is specifically set how that yield works is those individuals essentially go into um into a scenario where they receive one-third of all the protocol seniority so once the protocol is turned back on uh things go well it starts producing beans again to to meet demand of the protocol as those beans are produced typically prior to the exploit those beans would be issued in a 50 50 ratio to stockholders and the pod line so stockholders meaning individuals that have purchased stock tokens are part of what we call the silo and then that other group potholders are individuals that hold bean stocks debt instruments so pods so in this case during the barn raiser or as part of the barn raise that group gets an additional group so now there are three groups there's stockholders potholders and then there are individuals that have fertilizer so the yield is paid out in one-third one-third one-third proportions so for an individual that's looking to get involved in the barn raise the advantage is that they essentially get to kind of move to the front of the line as being a holder of that fertilizer token so prior to the exploit if i wanted to get in the pod line i would be getting into the back of the line which could be multiple millions of pods long if i'm buying fertilizer tokens here for the barn rays i get in line right in with essentially the front of the line of those pot holders and stockholders and i get that automatic senior edge right up front until my yield is paid back and so right along with that we've got individuals that are already part of the protocol that have been part of the exploit that are you know have access to um or certain rights to to seniors based on where they are in the rest of the system to try to maintain as much liquidity in the system as possible while the senior just being or while the yield is being paid back to individuals by fertilizer we've got kind of a uh we've got a lock-up system that's been developed where essentially the amount of fertilizer that's been sold compared to the total amount we're trying to raise at 77 million and the amount of senior age that's been paid out to fertilizer holders is essentially multiplied and that lock up period is based on the the multiplication the outcome of that multiplication problem so as a as more individuals become part of the barn rays by buying fertilizer tokens and then b as more individuals get paid back that are in the fertilizer system that lock up starts to loosen itself so more and more liquidity is available for individuals that may uh decide to to get out of the protocol or you know sell whatever whatever tokens they have that that are related to beanstalk so it's a really unique way to a reintroduce liquidity to recapitalize the system and then b incentivize individuals stick around because frankly if you've got if you've got stock that's currently in the silo you want to stick around for as long as you can to make sure that you lose as little of that as possible we know individuals are going to say you know what i'm out i'm i'm i'm not going to wait around a little anymore i'm willing to take a penalty to do that and that's fine if they do that before all of the all the fertilizer a has been sold and b all fertilizer holders have been repaid they know they're going to have a penalty associated with that and and that's their choice but for those that stick around there's an opportunity to essentially completely recapitalize wow wow thank you thank you so much for all that no problem dumpling anything anything i missed anything you want to add oh i would just add one thing which is if people uh if people do leave early which is totally fine um but if they do then let's say that you know someone with for example i don't know uh ten thousand dollars left early and only received i don't know random number but say four thousand dollars of um of what they had then that six thousand dollars that marginal six thousand dollars would go towards lowering the amount that we have to recapitalize um so you know if we started that 77 million and then you know now minus six thousand dollars um but also minus whatever else has been invested so uh yeah so it's a just it's a really cool uh i think we've really you know crowd sourced i think a really pretty elegant solution um to what seemed like a pretty impossible problem uh to begin with and i'm really excited to see how see it play out um i think everyone's pretty excited for the barn race and and how does what's how does a scenario play out if um you know it's not fully recapitalized you know say you get a 10 20 30 million yeah sure so originally the plan was uh that we would just we would haircut everyone down proportionate uh to that and you know we that seemed you know that seemed pretty reasonable and um but what we thought you know what we ultimately ended up doing is uh you know in our most recent uh bfp is is titled no haircuts because you know we were in one uh in one ama publius was was describing a haircut and uh you know a lot of financial people are familiar with that term and a lot of people in the discord were like what does he mean a haircut like and so anyway we were whatever but uh so the the idea is that because really because of the of the vesting and of uh we originally were planning that because we were doing a limited term like a limited amount of time fundraise i think we were originally thinking two weeks but then we decided that if we if we do an indefinite fundraise if we do you know if we keep it going until um you know until we until we fully we capitalize then we can do it without a haircut and the thinking here is that if we raise a relatively small amount like let's say uh 10 then the amount it goes one third one third one third to the the old pod line the new pod line and the silo right you imagine that it could be armed somehow right it's kind of like that like you imagine that if there's only it's a relatively small pod line it'll get paid off relatively quickly and then someone else will want to jump in to get their their fertilizer so that's right fertilizer will become a you know if there's no one else in line well why don't i just line up over here and get my 50 or 100 or you know whatever whatever point it's at um rex the exact amount i think it's is a half a percent per per season i believe that's correct i believe that's correct um i'll actually grab the document while we're talking here um you know the other neat thing about how the bar and raise will work and i think about the the other side of this process so when we get to the point where you know let's say that we um let's say that we get to 90 and for whatever reason uh the process let's say sort of stalls out and we have a hard time finding individuals that would be interested in continuing to buy fertilizer as time goes on the the neat thing about that it's really to dumplings point is that if individuals say well you know what i've i've waited long enough i am i'm gonna go i've got 90 of my original original investment back i'm going to cash out to dumplings point that 10 percent that they're foregoing that value is essentially it's it's put back into or against the outstanding missing liquidity and it actually gets the remaining individuals you know may it may take that group that stay to 91 percent and so again it really creates all these different points of stickiness where it's really in individuals best interest a to be part of the process you know to to buy that fertilizer and theoretically you know if you want the best return possible you want to buy it as early as possible and b to stick around so that they can they can recapitalize as much as possible and realize those gains as much as possible in my mind it should reach a steady state you know at the point if you imagine that situation where we had where you know 10 10 million uh goes a fertilizer is bought then you know you imagine as we as you know bean start printing and say that you know the first 150 million of beans that get printed 50 million 50 million 50 million so now the fertilizer podline is paid off now someone even if the the humidity is pretty low at that point someone's going to come in with a hundred dollars and say okay if i put this hundred dollars in the next next hour i'm gonna get back 120. you know so that's you know if the humidity is it i think it caps down at 20 so the idea is that there'll always probably be a certain amount of people to balance out the yield from the fertilizer pod line with the uh the other pod line to kind of balance out and and the silo and it's going to be people you know independent economic actors trying to decide you know what's in their best interests but there should always in my mind until we get up to the 77 million there should be um some marginal investors um and we'll see how it goes you know i mean that's that's kind of the beauty of the thing is we'll um you know we'll see we'll see how it goes and uh yeah it's very exciting and you were correct dumpling it is half a percentage every season for 460 seasons until it gets to the 20 percent that it that is the plateau of 20 right that's correct okay uh i i'd like to apologize to the beanstalk community who um already understand and i've heard all of this that is it's it's very enlightening to that's fine spread the love spread the education speaking of the beanstalk community what is the general sentiment on this is going way off topic but what's the sentiment on you know do kwan um you know him being revealed as the founder of basis cash and you guys obviously drawing inspiration uh from that protocol um but taking it to like you know twisted crazy levels of like sophistication sure so i first thing i'll say is that that's really a great question for publius and i don't know if dumpling or i would feel real comfortable speaking on their behalf but i guess what i will say is that i think in general the the situation with tara has caused our community to kind of stick take a step back and you know carefully look at a the project in general how we're approaching certain things you know how our governance works you know really it's given us given us pause um the other thing that i would say is that it has given our community a really good opportunity to um to kind of um hopefully build build some build some bonds with with the terror community um you know our we were we were all pretty heartbroken when we heard about what was what had happened with tier with terror destabilizing and you know i i know there's a lot of a lot of individuals involved beanstalk that were also involved with tara a lot of individual individuals lost money as destabilized and and as the the system kind of spun apart and so it's really uh just a good opportunity for us to um hesitate to use the word commiserate but to empathize with with what that community was going through i feel like i've heard publius say a lot of times that you know the the idea you know behind basis cash was was pretty good but that there were just some some fundamental flaws in it that they really wanted to address when they were um you know when they were working on uh beanstalk and so yeah it is it is very interesting though that that connection um well what it makes me think of is the whole purpose of d5 or the evolution that underlies d5 projects it's it's this is a very good example business cash evolving into bean stock you know individuals that are you know involved the development of base cash you know doing their thing creating that project then individuals from beanstalk looking at projects like basis cash and saying okay what worked well what didn't what can we do to make our project more robust and i really feel like that is that's the heart of defy even as difficult and frankly terrible is some of these some of these unfortunate circumstances around projects kind of going off the rails can be the thing that they do provide that is sometimes a very slight silver lining but a silver lining nonetheless are really good learning opportunities for the evolution of these systems with the hope that at some point down the road you know systems are robust enough to where they can navigate these different either economic and market situations or outside actors you know the the robustness of systems continues to grow which is which is really the you know the goal of d5 for sure you guys you guys you know tweak the formula and and i i think you know without the exploit it could have gone on in perpetuity and and i i really wish it had because you know even with the terror collapse um you know beanstalk might still look be looked to as a case study on you know hey um on uncollateralized stable coins could still work under the right you know formula conditions um but you know that's that's that's a big what if you know and it still might it still might be that case but it's a bit of a harder battle now uh but i'm cheering for you guys i appreciate that and and i think that you know just set your calendar for i'm not sure if we can say july 4th or july 6th just yet but uh yeah set your calendars we'll see how we'll see how this goes and um i wanted to ask you about uh tara and was was pickle um but besides just the overall market you know downturn was uh was pickle involved or not involved but was it you know yeah we had you know we had a bunch of mirrored assets so um you know mirrored stocks like tesla or um silver slv though which you know unfortunately went to zero because it was paired with ust oh i see um so so so some of our users unfortunately suffered losses there but those weren't huge for us luckily um but but you know the community members and you know myself individually you know a lot of us sure it took a took a big hit from that can you explain a little bit about the mirrored assets and and how those uh how those functioned and that sounds like a really cool thing um it's i actually don't know the underlying mechanisms too well i understand they're they are over collateralized um on mirror protocol so you know you deposit a bunch of collateral and then you're able to mint um say mirrored tesla sort of you know sort of the same way s and x works synthetics um and so you can either sell that you know and in doing so you're pretty much shorting that stock or you can be a liquidity provider um and there were decent yields to be earned there um but it was it was really good it was it was a really good way for you know people who are not us citizens or who couldn't easily access u.s equities uh to be able to get exposure to those you know really popular assets yeah that's really interesting and is there now can you still do it with other stable coin pairs or other stable coins or is it on hold for now no i i my understanding is they were the only protocol to provide them um and i don't um i could see it being a thing in the future it does provide real value but it has to um i think it you know there was a there was a big deal with uni swap uh delisting all of these mirrored pairs because they weren't in compliance with securities regulations um and so there was um there was a problem there and so that might that might make things difficult for a successor yeah i understood i i wasn't really that aware that they i mean i guess i had heard of it before but i never really thought i'm just kind of connecting the dots now and it seems like a really interesting idea for sure yeah well it was you know it was a real good real world application of defy so kind of along those lines something that we've been wondering about something that really struck us is interesting about the pickle finance project is the number of different networks that pickle is involved with i mean just looking through your your your documents polygon moon river talk us through a little bit about how what the what the reasoning was for that broad reach what you're trying to achieve through that broader reach yeah well you know in a nutshell it's just to make ourselves relevant to the largest largest possible number of users um you know there's some users who who enjoy farming on polygon uh others who enjoy um avax although we're not on that one uh arbitrary optimism for example so we just we just you know we kind of hustle and and look look for all the available yield opportunities on on on different pro on different chains um to include them to hopefully you know drive more attention and deposits to pickle how much of a development lift was that to get on all those uh networks it's it's not hard it's honestly not too hard they're all evm compatible chains you just you switch the chain id um gotcha and and you know they're all typically pretty mature protocols um you know like moon river aurora they have good dev teams good support and once once we get our infra infrastructure up and running to be able to scale um it's it's not too big an engineering lift do you find that um because the fees are lower on some of those networks that the use case is a little bit yeah yeah you know a little bit worse because one of the big advantages on on main net is you can avoid the fees is is that is that a concern or are there other advantages of you know convenience and uh anything else i'm not listing enough you know to make it useful for people right yeah yeah so you know those other properties or advantages still exist and for some users they are compelling enough to um accept the fee we charge and and and you know our fee correspondingly lowers on on side chains where you know it's really cheap to transact um it's down to four point five percent on on certain ones like phantom or um etc so yeah there's there's still enough of uh i feel compelling reason to use an aggregator and you know and it's not the right product or service for everyone uh some people feel they could do it better on their own um have the time to invest to farm um like rotating farms more often than others in which case yeah it's you know you don't have to use an aggregator but you know others others who like the set and forget um i think we still offer um a compelling product and of these um of these other networks which ones are you most excited about uh you know just because you're maybe a little closer to them than uh me and rex are i've liked the roll-ups a lot me me being sort of an eth maxi um i do believe in more of a roll-up-centric feature for ethereum scaling um but all the different chains sort of offer their own advantages like aurora bridges um the near ecosystem with the evm which is really cool to see um and you know it's it's they've driven a lot of adoption of um from near users um so that cross uh pollination um is is one of those advantages offered by certain chains um each you know each have their advantages but there are you know so so it's hard for me to say a favorite i guess whichever one earns pickled the most money but that's very fair but yeah that was just my personal perspective and you know there's chains that don't do too much but you know from a technical perspective sort of like bsc but still serve still provide value in the form of you know um onboarding retail um just increasing overall exposure so there's you know there's value in everything guys in my opinion sure completely understandable so so along those lines i mean what what is what is the future for pickle what are you looking at for new opportunities um new networks to reach out to tell us a little bit about what's what's on the horizon yeah well with the optimism airdrop there's a lot of hype in that network and so we're we're you know keen to build on top of whatever uh farming opportunities are offered there and you know there seem to be there's gonna be a lot in the coming months um but apart from farms which you know let's be honest the yield has decreased a lot recently uh but you know another exciting opportunity for growth is um the the voting escrow model as i mentioned that other protocols are adopting um so balancer is i don't know if you guys have kept up has recently launched their ve bow so similar to vecrv similar to dill and so we would like to be part of um what they call the balancer wars uh fighting for the i guess the largest fighting to be the best offering for for socialized uh balance or locking and what that entails is that you know a user can either individually lock their balancer tokens um and you know get bribes that way uh benefit from boosted rewards and and get fishing or they can walk through a protocol like pickle who will um you know also you know remit the bribe revenues back to the users but we will benefit from a socialized farming boost and so when we provide pickle jars for uh balancer liquidity pairs um they would be higher than an individual user could achieve on their own without you know if they were to lock balancer um and there's flywheel effects as part of that system where you know a user can just uh a modest farmer could come in not lock any balancer and earn boosted rewards but a portion of those boosted rewards are remitted to um those who lock their balance or tokens with pickle um to create incentives in both directions uh we call that sorry sorry if that was a lot uh feel free to jump in with any questions but we we call that system the brinery oh the brinery i was i was clicking around the brinery and i was about as confused as i am now it's exciting and i get excited in the same way yeah i am yeah i feel like i'm sitting at the adult table right now and i'm still a kid but but you know it does it sounds exciting oh no your your explanation of beanstalk put me back in kindergarten so you're too kind so so publius is the main architect of your systems i'd say that yeah i mean the or or the i'd say like founding you know the founding dev team yeah i think that's i think that's a good way to put i would say that so publius is the founding development team pretty early on beanstalk was lucky enough to fall into relationship with a number of other really talented devs so i would say that the dev team is pretty pretty well built out now even after the exploit i mean we've been really fortunate to have a strong core team stick around and and help put together the um the barn rays help to put in improvements to the existing protocol helped to provide feedback and support for the different audits that have been happening so a lot of stuff going on and been been really really lucky to have a really strong core team of developers working right alongside publius through that process if you could see our our discord you know there's a lot of stuff that's kind of behind the hood for the you know for the beanstalk farms team but if you could see how busy that that thing is it's like yeah a lot of activity at all times of the day indeed solaire is there anything else you want to talk about in regards to pickle anything anything else you want to cover before we finish up i i i'd say i i laid it out all there you guys asked great questions and sort of um let me discuss every you know interesting aspect of our protocol um to date so thank you thank you for those you know really good prompts our pleasure and so you can find find out more about pickle finance by going to their website which is pickled finance you can also find them on twitter telegram and their discord which is discord.gg slash pickle dash finance so larry thank you again for joining us and dumpling thanks for joining us as well thanks rex thanks everyone yeah it was pleasure being here um yeah just and just one last thought um you guys you guys are gonna could kill the barn rays um and i wanna again voice my admiration for the beanstalk community uh the leaders you guys um for being so committed to the mission um i love to see it it really embodies the spirit of defy so you know keep the good work up and that's a that's great to hear we really appreciate the positive sentiment tell your friends if you've got a few bucks you can always throw them in too i think uh high fertilizer that's right some fertilizer fertilizer pump in pump that fertilizer get that sweet sweet humidity never thought i would say i'm excited about the high humidity but here we are really excited about exceeding levels of humidity