• Recordings
• Meeting Notes
• Introduction
• What are the challenges of finding more auditors?
• What does Ben wish people would've taken away from the Beanstalk State Spaces?
• How far from the Seed Gauge system deployment when Farmers will have new tools?
• Discussion around thoughts of the State Spaces
• What are Ben's thoughts around partnering with outside groups?
• What is Ben's timeframe for defining Beanstalk’s success?
• Why does Ben think people were not sharing the high APYs?
• Does Ben think Beanstalk will be successful at the current amount of Beans?
• Does Ben have a revised target for when Beanstalk will hit 1 billion Beans?
• Does Basin volume get Ben excited?
• Seed Gauge and the bot
• Do you think it is important to set timeline goals?
• What does Ben think is the main event that will start growth?
• What is the importance of the Silo?
• Why can't other protocols integrate directly with Bean?
• Is the main purpose of the Convert bot to minimize the outflows of Pods Harvesting?
• Disabling Converts for Unripe
• Transcript

Recordings

Meeting Notes

Introduction

• The purpose of this meeting is for Ben to answer some questions about what is happening with Beanstalk. The goal of Beanstalk is to decentralize money, and one person or one group should not be able to manipulate the money, and thus Ben does not think he should be doing weekly classes with the DAO. Money needs a community and Ben thinks that it will be really hard for Beanstalk to be money if the community vibes are really bad.

What are the challenges of finding more auditors?

• Audits have been the most tried part of audits. There was an audit before the exploit and the audit did not catch the exploit. The Beanstalk DAO has worked with a ton of various auditors, and the same issue came up with all the auditors. The model where the auditors are paid no matter how many bugs they find is not the best incentive structure. Ben thinks that audit competitions are a much better way to complete audits, as the incentives are much more aligned. It isn't a question of how to get more auditors for audit competitions, it is more of a question of how much you can access the auditor pool.

What does Ben wish people would've taken away from the Beanstalk State Spaces?

• Ben did not have any specific expectations on what the response was going to be from the presentations. There was very little critique from the DAO, and most people just ignored it. Ben thinks of Beanstalk as an experiment of how a protocol can oculate around a peg in a decentralized way. The change outlined in that report of changing Beanstalk from 2D to 3D is a huge change, and Ben wished people would have talked about it more. Ben thinks maybe the community is focused too much on short-term growth. Things are taking a bit longer because the devs are trying to make things safer.

How far from the Seed Gauge system deployment when Farmers will have new tools?

• Ben does not know

Discussion around thoughts of the State Spaces

• Nasjaq mentions that there are some thoughts he had during the State Space such as some people that it was just to get a budget pushed, and since there have not been a lot of Beanstalk calls lately Nasjaq felt a bit out of it in terms of Beanstalk language. Nasjaq also mentions it is refreshing to hear Ben say that the State Spaces were not supposed to influence the budget BIP. Ben and Nasjaq agree that there were a lot of people working for the DAO, and the exploit helped cut Beanstalk Farms down to a good size.

What are Ben's thoughts around partnering with outside groups?

• In general, Ben has always been against partnerships in an open-source environment since anyone can just do it. Something that Ben mentions is having the Silo yield in an ERC-20 token since that could decrease the friction integrating Beanstalk with the rest of DeFi. Local Farmer outreach to other protocols is a good place to start Ben thinks. The Root token is open-source so there is no reason why anyone can't fix the Root token and get an audit paid for by Beanstalk Farms.

What is Ben's timeframe for defining Beanstalk’s success?

• This is a very difficult question to answer. Ben and some other DAO members made a friendly bet to see when Beanstalk would hit 1 billion Beans and Ben thought it would be December 15th, 2022. Ben's guess was because he had been how fast a system like this could grow. What is success? if it is growth then Beanstalk has not been doing well, but if it is Peg maintenance then Beanstalk has been doing pretty well in Ben's opinion. Ben thinks that the community vibes are horrible, and this isn't helping how much people are talking about Beanstalk.

Why does Ben think people were not sharing the high APYs?

• Ben thinks it is because of the bad vibes, and it is hard to tell why the markets act like they do. The bot might be a reason why there are bad vibes. Ben doesn't think there is anything wrong with the bad vibes. Ben thinks the community has a way to much of an expectation of Beanstalk that Beanstalk will just print. Ben thinks that it comes down to mismatched expectations. Ben does not think the bot is a bad thing, and it is cool because Farmers are making their automation positions to create a tighter peg. There are various ways Beanstalk could incentivize upward converts, this could include gen convert. Currently, Beanstalk doesn't take into account how long Beanstalk is above/ below the peg. This is a very complex change that is pretty far out.

Does Ben think Beanstalk will be successful at the current amount of Beans?

• Currently, Beanstalk is at the same size as just before the exploit. It depends on the timeline of success. Just 1.5 years ago the system lost 200 million dollars and in a credit-based economy that's a big black eye.

Does Ben have a revised target for when Beanstalk will hit 1 billion Beans?

• Ben does not guess to share. The current model is so much better than the model before the exploit. The system works, and this comes down to some other market factors. Updating the model and then we will have a billion Beans is a misguided thought. Ben is not interested in thinking about what Farmers can do to grow Beanstalk right now.

Does Basin volume get Ben excited?

• Nasjaq mentions using Beans as a token to trade between USDC and ETH. Ben mentions that who wouldn't be excited to see a product they have been working on being used? Ben does not plan on working on something like this. Ben has spent a lot of time answering how to make a decentralized censorship resistance technology. Ben does not have any desire to get people to adopt Basin/ Beanstalk. There are many ways for DAO members to get compensated for their work.

Seed Gauge and the bot

• The system already has the Seeds set to the most aggressive parameters for Unripe. It shows that there are a lot of sellers above the peg. It will be harder to be more aggressive with the Seed Gauge. Currently, 90% of Stalk is owned by Unripe holders, and if Unripe gets 0 Stalk that would mean new Silo members would get a lot more yield. If Unripe gets 0 Stalk it would also make sense to turn off converts since they have zero incentive to convert. As Pizzaman understands it, if you hold unripe LP and Eth 10x Beanstalk is now trying to repay the higher amount and thinks shouldn't Beanstalk try to just repay the amount the farmer was exploited for. Ben agrees with this but thinks it is a separate issue.

Do you think it is important to set timeline goals?

• What does it mean for the system to work? it depends on a lot, it is really hard to set goals and hopefully, the system keeps getting better and better over time. The end goal is for Beanstalk to never go bankrupt.

What does Ben think is the main event that will start growth?

• It is a market and the market does huge things. Growth is downstream of capital inflow, and when capital enters the system it will look at the discord. Currently, the discord is very toxic and that will need to change for capital to enter the system.

What is the importance of the Silo?

• The whole utility of Bean is you can earn native positive carry, for lending protocols in theory the pools with Beans will have the best interest rates. To receive the positive carry you have to deposit them into the Silo. Silo deposits are ERC-1155 and most DeFi protocols use ERC-20 tokens this is where a Silo wrapper would be needed.

Why can't other protocols integrate directly with Bean?

• The Root token was an attempt of making a wrapper for the Silo, if there wasn't would still need to be some sort of Silo wrapper in Ben's opinion.

Is the main purpose of the Convert bot to minimize the outflows of Pods Harvesting?

• If you look at transactions on-chain it looks like most bot transactions are front-running other people converting. It is unclear if there are multiple bots or just one. They are using multiple addresses. It is unclear what the intentions of all the bots but some could be a mint maximizing bot or a BDV maximizing bot.

Disabling Converts for Unripe

• In Ben's opinion, it would be weird for Farms to be able to convert when they don't have Stalk and Seeds. It would be unclear why Beanstalk would let you do whatever you wanted if you weren't incentive to do so.

Transcript

okay well um thanks everybody for joining us um again I'm sure we'll have other folks come in as we get underway here looks like folks are still filtering in um wanted to uh kind of kick things off before um hand things over to Ben so I've listed this in the events as a class and I think those of us who are familiar with being stock longterm or used to you know the class of the past where we' talk through some specific items or concepts that are being worked on uh this is a little bit of a different format um you know for for lack of a better way to put it this is kind of a a a fud session or an opportunity for um folks in the community to ask Ben some pretty specific questions and I know that he's been thinking a lot about that um what I'll say before we get started is you know my goal in this conversation is to act as something of a moderator and my request for this group is that we just keep things civil and productive um you know obviously a lot of folks asking a lot of questions and a lot of things being discussed right now um some pretty raw emotions we've seen over the last you know handful of weeks in the Discord and um we want to recognize that and give folks the ability to uh to voice their concerns um but yeah my request is that everything just stays civil and productive uh and with that Ben I'll hand it over to you thank you re uh in general there seems to be a lot of uh negativity directed towards beanock uh as a whole from a lot of the members of the Discord uh which is particularly unfortunate uh a lot of the people that have worked so hard on beanock uh either to replant beanock successfully or cin the replant uh or to to me uh or Brandon uh but me me in particular there seems to be a lot of uh negativity and on the one hand I totally get it uh people are used to hearing prior to the exploit and prior to the replant uh and even for a while after the replant people were used to hearing me talk uh even if it was through a a a voice modifier and uh at the time that felt to me to be the best uh thing for beanock there was a lot of Base education that needed to happen and a lot of basic information that needed to be communicated uh but it it has already been communicated and so I I personally think that beanock is one of the coolest experiments uh currently happening in the world I think it's really [ __ ] cool and I spend I have spent is the better thing to say I have spent uh so much of the past three and a half years uh so much of my time energy and effort over the past three and a half years has been focused on trying to facilitate uh a decentralized economy a censorship resistant economy uh through the implementation of a stable coin uh that you know I've said time and time again that seemed like a great uh problem to solve and a great starting point uh back three and a half years ago when we started working on this and it still feels that way uh the difference is that now that we're doxed it it it's really hard to just be here talking uh and it's for a lot of different reasons but just from a existential reason beanock as a as a if its goal is to be money it's it's it really shouldn't be such that one person or even one small group of people can significantly manipulate the currency that's that's part of uh the value proposition of something like beant stock and so generally given that I'm a pretty young guy I my general tendency is that I it's it's not a good idea for me to be here all the time talking anymore and I understand that that makes people upset and I'm sorry because I love and of coming and doing these classes has been one of the most fun and intellectually stimulating things that I've ever been a part of and so the fact that we're not doing this all the time kind of sucks uh it it does suck um it really sucks uh because there is so much to talk about um but just the nature of the fact that we can't really hide behind a pseudonym anymore makes it much harder from a again if if the real goal is for beanock to to be money like how can I be here just talking as myself on a regular basis that seems that seems like a problem but I I really do understand that people are upset with that said I am here in the interest of trying to help uh address a lot of the negativity that has uh really made the Discord just a horrible place to hang in uh and if you just toose that against The Vibes in the past it it's it's a I mean it's a a night and day difference and given that money is something that fundamentally is based in community people choosing to use some sort of anything uh as their medium of exchange or unit of account amongst each other uh that that is the source of utility as money it's community how can how can we expect beanock to ever be accepted as money if the The Vibes in the community are so horrible so I'm here to to hopefully field some of that negativity as much of it as possible I can't say that I'm going to have good answers or satisfactory answers but to the extent that we can air some of this out I think it will be hopefully constructive uh and you know let's see how it goes let's see how it goes um so first I see that there's a question from uh looks like for multiflow well there are five weeks and past and two past What are the challenges of finding more auditors? weeks at minimum allocated for for Auditors but you discuss the challenges of finding more Auditors is finding more Auditors and above the funnel task or is it not possible has the open source code Hawks audit proved useful how does the remediation timeline look for seed gauge um okay audits have been one of the most trying components of the beam stock experience in the past uh where of course there was an audit prior to the exploit that did not catch the the problem but even thereafter in the in the pre replant uh audit where we were connect uh beanock was was able to be audited by trail of bits um which in theory is the gold standard by name brand uh they somehow ended up only auditing a portion of beanock despite the fact that we told them that there was no limitation in cost there was no reason that they shouldn't be able to do it and they just they they they didn't have room in the calendar God Only Knows even though they made the Dow wait for like eight months between when it was scheduled and when they would do the data it was some crazy it was scheduled before even the the hack I believe um and then they said oh it I mean it was just crazy experiences with all these Auditors um there was halborn uh there was cyphon and over time it really just seems like the primary problem not to call out any particular Auditors although the trail of bits experience was particularly horrible um it was really awful was the it's that this this model this business model where you pay people to look at the code and they get paid independent of whether they find anything is not really a good model and what we have found is instead that competitions through which there's sort of a crowdsourced audit uh have generally been much more successful uh I I was I believe that code Arena has never had an exploit of anything that has gone through one of their competitions and I think that speaks to the fact that crowd sourcing uh is potentially a better way to audit a better incentive structure where people only get paid if they find vulnerabilities and you have lots of people looking at uh the code at once over a short period of time instead of uh just one or two people at an audit firm that get paid regardless uh code Hawks is a new newer program similar to code Arena uh that I think was started by cyphon uh and I the seed gauge audit uh has been with them uh with that program uh it's still in progress so don't think that uh I have any sort of information that just suppose them versus uh codena at this point but uh the point is the the crowdsourcing audit model seems to be seems Seems to seems to be a better incentive model and has benefited beanock uh serve beanock well with the the code Arena audit to date it seems uh that doesn't necessar mean that there's a problem finding more Auditors it just means that accessing like accessing that pool of Auditors uh you know can't necessarily be done in parallel because it's it's really one pool so it's like how how often do you want to access the pool well you can access it probably in sequence but not necessarily in parallel uh if that makes sense I don't know if nanis Jack is around to follow up if that oh yeah I think I see him uh if if if that if that wasn't clear feel free to hop up or clarify thank you I actually asked uh where was that question written in the barnyard chat but I guess it was the question that I had asked earlier so uh I appreciate that oh that was from class I see that I'm tagged here a couple times but I guess that was from a previous day oh we I guess uh I just came so ready to I I came so ready to answer questions that's so funny you're all over I just had to scroll up and find it that is pretty funny all right well uh are people typing out questions anywhere I don't even see it uh I guess I only see stuff from 39 19 um if you scroll down there's been I asked where was that question written and elastic Bean commented on the mood change if you scroll down can you see that in barard chat yes I do see that but I don't see any questions so I you know maybe then we can just start by opening up the floor and seeing if people have any questions I mean uh Al I have a I wrote down a few um one of the ones I wrote down that I guess we can start with is What does Ben wish people would've taken away from the Beanstalk State Spaces? what do you wish people took away from your presentation asked about or because you were voicing some frustrations about uh your three-hour presentations not being received like you wanted what uh what what what did you want or what were the takeaways well you know that's a great question question I don't know if I had any particular expectations as to what people would respond to the presentation and maybe people would say they don't like the ideas that were presented uh you know that would be sort of what I would view as a negative reception but there didn't seem to be any sort of reception uh from an intellectual perspective or very little I got a few messages uh most people expressed great interest uh but very little critique uh from anybody and the general response was either you know people totally ignored it and otherwise you know sort of made fun of it uh and if not made fun of it maybe like dismissed its value and the one hand maybe it's not so valuable but on the other hand if you think about what is beanock uh at least if I think about what is beanock uh I think beanock is an experiment to figure out how can a a program autonomously adjust to market conditions to oscillate the the price of some you know non-collateralized uh some synthetic CRI uh credit based asset uh across some value peg in perpetuity uh which is a a very much an open area of study as far as I'm concerned uh which beanock is at the Forefront of uh the change from a two-dimensional model that only considers price and debt level to a three-dimensional model that considers price debt level liquidity level is a pretty big change and the the bip that will ultimately go out uh that is I guess the the bit that has been under audit uh uh for for a while now uh is based on a lot of the the work that is reflected in that report that was published and the fact that people didn't really recognize or even if they did recognize didn't didn't really it didn't change at all the energy in the Discord in particular uh and it's like you know people are upset that I'm not around it's like well I I may not be around in chatting but you know here's 180 page document that I prepared you know to share with the community uh because this is what's been on my mind and you know I find that there to be so much value in having the discourse with the community uh and sort of the whole Spirit of beanock that this shouldn't be something that is coming from the top this is something that should be uh discussed and debated at length uh you know the fact that there was no real followup from people no real critique you know it just sort of it it the point is it it shows that be shck uh you know the community maybe is more focused on short-term growth uh a little too much in my opinion compared to the long-term success of the model like this is the seed gauge uh uh the seed gauge idea is a very powerful idea in my opinion and the fact that the audit has started is very exciting to me and uh it's it's just unfortunate that people are so impatient impatient excuse me like beanock was hacked and it was hacked for a lot of money and it it would sort of be the kiss of death for the current Dow for the current protocol uh if beanock was hacked again and so to the extent that things take a little extra longer uh to try to make things a lot safer uh you know it's just again I understand the frustration uh but I think it's generally Mis it's misdirected like who are people upset at that things don't move faster like this is the way things are in my experience things don't move that fast and so to the extent that people rush things that's how mistakes happen so the fact that at this point uh you know people are upset that things are moving faster it's like well how about let's talk about the direction that things are moving are things moving in the right direction you know there's a lot of complaining about there a lot of complaining going on and it's like well I I I publish uh uh we publish uh myself and along with a few other a few other Dow members published uh 180 page document about where we think beanock should go it's a it's a reflection of our thoughts on where where the model should be going ahead of the Dow vote uh around the seed gauge system uh and really tried to explain in depth how it works in our understanding and why the system is designed the way it is and this is why uh you know this is why things uh are designed the way that they've been designed the fact that there was very little uh intellectual response and it was a lot of more more just impatience it's like this is a this is rocket science you know this is uh the model works pretty well already even if people don't like the peg maintenance uh that it's too stable um it's like uh the model works pretty well it works really well so the idea of now adding a whole another dimension to Peg maintenance uh is a big deal and there should be a lot more discussion about it in my opinion so that's where the disappointment comes from so Ben follow question with that idea so seed gauge How far from the Seed Gauge system deployment to when Farmers will have new tools? finishes audit and Remediation and it goes into service how far is the implementation of that system from putting a a new tool into the hands of participants in beanock you know it that I think that's probably one of the questions that's that I've seen circulating a lot through the Dow kind of worded it in different ways like you know how long is it from when when seed gauge goes into to service to when all of a sudden you know Harry's got a new set of tools that he can use to participate in beanock and you know and and succeed in that participation I I have no idea Rex I have no idea uh so one thing and I'm happy to let other Discussion around thoughts of the State Spaces people talk um one common phrase used around the large presentation was that it felt like uh the budget was coming up and so you were kind of just talking to us uh to get the budget through I'm just saying that felt like kind of the sentiment and then another comment is um that because we hadn't really had these classes or conversations uh to be honest when I was listening to the presentation uh I felt very out of touch with the Beanstalk lingo and uh I found it hard to not necessarily follow but like have any insights or takeaways or comments or anything those are that's just two comments on that yeah I mean I I appreciate that that it sort of advanced bean stock content that was presented but to a large extent it's like bean stock is pretty Advanced so you know maybe the thing to have done would have been to you know have had maybe more of a basic uh class or basic explanation uh as well you know like seed gauge for dummies uh or seed gauge 101 if we don't want you know be derogatory uh but uh yeah maybe that's a good thing we should be doing I couldn't agree trust couldn't agree more man couldn't agree more um so yeah maybe that would be a good uh maybe that would be a good class to have uh you know at some point in the future I also think being able to talk like this back and forth um makes maybe people feel more engaged than listening to a three-hour lecture but I do see the value for a three-hour lecture as well just so you can get through everything yeah I I hear that you know to some extent I even felt like there was a real difference in the qualities of the presentation between day one and day two because it was disjoint and it's like I think just from a quality perspective it probably would have been better to just record it straight um which I understand can be a lot for people to consume at once but the good thing about like asynchronous technology is that you just listen to it in pieces so maybe maybe it should have been published with more like chapters and sign posting uh if that makes sense uh or labeling uh yeah hear you um and on the timing front yeah the timing was unfortunate uh but this was something that I'd been working on uh along with some of the other uh Dow members uh for quite a while and I don't it didn't really make sense to hold back uh on publishing it uh just because of the upcoming budget vote uh uh even though uh of course as you said it looked a little bit uh a little bit uh like that um but point taken uh so generally yeah we we can go ahead well I was just going to say it's it's refreshing to hear you say hey it actually wasn't you know the timing just coincided with the budget but hey like the budget is separate it's just refreshing to hear you speaking to us like that just putting that out there well you know to some extent people are just so people assume so such negativity unless you know people defend themselves and sort of like front run the fud and it's like what kind of world do we want to live in you know so maybe a a lot of my absence has been just like hoping that that people would sort of move on and then I could rejoin the community as just like a normal Dow member um which is still my long-term hope is really just like I'm just here as a a normal participant even though I understand at this point like I'm here doing a class um but yeah I get it this just this is how it is for the time being it seems but be like yeah it is what it is yeah I think like if we kind of think about preex exploit um there were all these calls people were trying to participate a lot um and I think there might have been a path where eventually if things had gone pre- exploit trajectory there were enough there was enough interest that you could have stepped away I think and people might have started taking things over um but I think it's hard to have the exploit and then get back to that situation which without kind of having some momentum behind it for somebody else to take the uh take the torch yeah I mean there's like the there's the ideal and then there's the practice you know it's like the reality is that prior to the the hack the Dow had like 50 people working for the town like it was crazy um and there was so much flush fluff and inefficiency and it was all uh easy for the Dow to approve generally uh because the system is growing uh pretty quickly although there were budgets that were passed um sizable budgets that were pass even when the system is below Peg um the point is that was all funded uh by the Dow it was very it was very big and Bloated uh after the hack the the people that stuck around uh ended up being the people that really cared about Bean stuck and so even though sure that's the ideal it's like the reality is that that now uh the people that are uh or have the people that have been contributing on Bean stock uh that have contributed on beanock uh over the previous uh year uh two years now basically um since the exploit are people that are uh that that have that have demonstrated much more uh care about the the success of beanock so it's it's one of those like there's the ideal and then there's the practice in practice there there's very little uh there's I mean it's just a world of difference if you know what I mean it's a world of difference I I totally agree that there were like unnecessary jobs being performed like changing the logo color and stuff like but I mean I I don't know like H the devs that currently are contributing a lot like they probably found it because you were there and or PE people were excited about it and like you know they ended up saying and kept the torch going but yeah there was a lot of unnecessary stuff before the exploit but it's like uh that kind of comes with it I just uh I found the purple beam presentation by the way if anybody ever wants to throwback to the old purple bean but I'll say just you know for two seconds you know having been part of the leadership team pre- exploit I'd agree that there was there was a lot of fluff and and you know I'll say that even inside of so I had the community team at that point and you know what we ran into was there were a lot of people that wanted to help and that gets you know that's that's easy to say until you start talking about paying people to help and um you know I obviously the exploit was terrible but from a an ability to trim back was a good opportunity to to kind of trim back and to find the people that were really interested in sticking with the protocol long term and you know there are still quite a few of us around from those pre- exploit days but um you know obviously things are a lot leaner but also part of that is that there there's serious like like the fact that people are so seriously angry uh that there's no sort of like I'm not here on a regular Cadence talking about things like what is the point of that seriously what is the point of that so then I'll um ask you a question that I I was just looking through General and um so Jax asked um so I'll quote his and then I'll I'll I'll reshape the question a little bit so J wrote coming up two years since the barn Ray what legit What legitimate What are Ben's thoughts around partnering with outside groups? meaningful new Partnerships have been created within beanock since then and to kind of reshape that question I think maybe a better question is what are your thoughts or you know how can we how can we more productively approach outside groups for the sake of partnership and I've got thoughts on this but you know I'd be interested to hear your thoughts too is you know knowing that knowing that protocols Thrive through use and utility and those Partnerships you know tend to drive utility get me thoughts on on how we can position the protocol long term to to start to move in the direction of more Partnerships so where is uh where is this Rex so this is in general it's um man I'm seeing it n it's it's not far from the bottom of General it's JX Bean who looks like the meme guy uh that is I can't think of the name of the meme anyway um just above jhg it's shown 9:40 my time but that's that's Eastern sure I see that now so in general this is something that I've always been on the record uh I guess puis was always on the record uh as being generally against uh is this idea of Partnerships in crypto that it's generally unclear what is the purpose of a partnership uh in an open source environment other than just onboarding the the the token or the asset uh there's no real need for a partnership uh you can just do it uh so to the extent that you're asking Rex how can uh beanock be more widely onboarded across defi uh well you know one of the big frictions on that front is having the yield from The Silo in some sort of erc20 fungible asset uh which was sort of the original uh idea behind the root token uh because that that potentially could decrease the friction uh between the The Silo yield and the rest of defi which generally runs on the erc20 token uh so there's you know right now uh my understanding is that based on all of the upgrades to The Silo that the root token implementation no longer works it's been broken uh and therefore uh that low friction solution uh you know is not is not currently working uh which is now reintroduces the friction um so that would be one place to look um to potentially you know to to readdress that friction uh by fixing the compatibility between the RO root token uh and the current Silo um and then once that's in place you know then it's probably a little bit easier uh for just you know local farmer Outreach uh to other defi protocols to try to onboard uh The Silo yield to to various uh various other dii protocols Ben glad to hear you uh talking in public here um it was my understanding that the root token was you know controlled by this other organization maybe it's a would be more beneficial for Greenock to actually build a simil type of thing or perhaps we should reach out to uh to rude and ask them if there are any plans to I thought I saw zerox coconut on the call earlier and I think he was perhaps one of the root developers coconut if you're if you're able to speak to what the current state of the the root token is that' be awesome I don't think I see Co oh yeah I do see coconut I don't know if he's willing to talk not to put you on the spot coconut I don't know if coconuts got access to a mic um but I would just say in general uh this is sort of one of the frictions around uh current development uh you know the the the current development environment in the evm where uh maintaining all this backwards compatibility has been a challenge so uh to your question Pizza Man uh the root token code is open source so there's no reason why other members of the Dow couldn't fix that issue and then the Dow could potentially pay for an audit uh of that fix uh so that's certainly something to be considered but would Pro probably make sense to talk to Coconut uh and the rot team uh so that uh mult you know to make sure that there isn't uh the same work being done twice see that someone asked a question in the the Barnyard chat I guess I can read it aloud for them they say there have have there been many discussions around people's sentiments driven by their time frame I think you kept on oh the sopa one sorry uh currently can't talk but I think that some of the inter tension might arise from the fact that you and others are currently still working on developing the protocol while also wanting to take a backseat Community wise people will look to you if you're pushing forward the ideas and are on basically every RFC pushed by De stock hard position to put yourself in in my opinion uh there's definitely a bouncing act here not sure if there's a question there but just comment just wanted to have it read and wanted to say thank you sle uh I I appreciate this uh and I'm here uh you know in good faith trying to do a better job at balancing that because uh I obviously understand uh I am a an important member of the beanock community currently um and I think being stock is important so that means that the job that I've done to date is probably uh a disservice to that beat a man I don't want you to feel like you have to sit and read off questions so Ben you want to you want to talk through being bankman or you want me to read through it or yeah that'd be great if you could read it sure um there have been many discussions around people's sentiments driven by their their time frame of What is Ben's timeframe for defining Beanstalk's success? judging beanock success what is your time frame for evaluating beanock as successful or healthy well this is not something that you can answer in a vacuum uh the context matters and the answer prior to the hack would have certainly been different than the answer post Tac um I think let me see if I can find it I don't know where it is uh at one point myself and a few other uh down members uh made a a uh like a just a friendly bet on when we thought beanock would hit a billion beans after replant and I thought it was going to be like my guess I just checked is December 15th uh 20202 I guess yeah so I thought it would be five months and until bean stuff was at a billion beans uh and the reason for that is that I've experienced How uh exponential uh the growth in a system like this can get uh and so the question was really you know how long will it take for there to be an exponential growth cycle and it still hasn't happened yet um so since the replant so I guess the point is if you're you're trying to view things from the perspective of growth when will beanock grow to the size uh you know from that perspective you could call it a failure it did not meet expectations uh but when you consider that there ended up being a huge bare Market uh that there was basically no Capital that flowed into beanock whatsoever that there were massive capital outflows from beanock over the past year and a half uh the fact that beanu has done such a good job at maintaining Peg to me is uh very impressive and so it's like well what is success uh if you're talking about growth uh beanu has not grown much uh since replant yeah but if you're talking about Peg maintenance uh beanock has done quite a fabulous job in my opinion at Peg maintenance and given that beanock is likely uh if it is successful when it's at much larger sizes to go through extended periods of time where it is not growing uh perhaps because the economy that uses Bean is in a recession uh the idea that beanock could still uh do a generally decent job of maintaining its Peg is quite exciting data uh so obviously it's happened at small scale obviously it's happened with liquidity that's generally been locked up so it's not the best data um but it's still it's still in data uh over the past year and a half so uh lots of different ways to evaluate success why do you think in a bull market we aren't having the exponential growth cycle like if it if it didn't happen by December 2022 because of the bear you know we're kind of starting to see a bull market um why do you think we aren't getting new inflow even though like our liquidity is increasing well there's a couple things one The Vibes in the community are awful and again money is a community-based thing awful awful awful Vibes so there have been times over the past couple of months where the apys have gotten pretty good over like a 30-day period of time um and that means that over a 24-hour period of time they got really really good and no one was sharing that no one was sharing that with their other communities and that I think really reflects how negative the the vibe has been so you know why haven't people been talking about the performance of beanock and how it's done pretty well given that there's been no inflow of capital whatsoever uh there's bad vibes and bad vibes we get more bad vibes so uh you know here's to here's to addressing as much of that bad bad energy that NE negative energy uh you know right now yeah I love addressing the negative energy right now why do you think people weren't sharing the high apy with their Why does Ben think people were not sharing the high APYs? friends do you think uh you know I think a lot of people might say Well we'd see high uh prices but then the convert bot would just immediately convert uh and so that was kind of like just constantly depressing feeling like there was a ceiling on her head instead of like okay people sold people took out liquidity but it wasn't like this singular bot just uh taking price what do you think about that well are you asking about the price going up or are you asking about the apy being insufficient or are you asking about the bot because those are three different objections the sentiment reason as to why people weren't sharing the higher apy because I definitely know there were there were some people that started tweeting about it the higher apy but why do you think it didn't catch on and I I guess I put out a few reasons such as uh the bot or other stuff well I think it's more about the bad vibes personally and it's you know hard to actually understand why the market acts the way that it does um but my guess is the bad vibes and I think things like the bot uh are are things that currently are creating bad vibes or perhaps the bad vibes are using as something to generate more bad vibes uh but I don't think that that that the problem itself is anything like with the model I think that the problem is more meta than that and it's more about the community and then the question you can ask is well why is the community bad vibes yeah that's what I was going to ask next why do you think the community has bad vibes well handedly I think that there's way too much of an expectation or a hope that people have of being stock that it's just going to print you know this just because people have seen it print before people are many people just really want that again it's so exciting when it happens uh but that that doesn't really jive with the reality which is that this is an experiment and that the experiment itself is print independent the experiment is the experiment and to the extent that the experiment prints that's wonderful but the experiment is the experiment and it it's really I to me I think a lot of the negativity is Downstream of the that people are unhappy with the to some extent the the scientific nature of the discovery of this thing and it's a live system you know you don't want to kill a live system you don't get to come back from the dead more than once typically so the fact that being Su was replanted successfully at all uh you know it's a second life but it's not so easy you know if you get a second life to just start shuring again the way things were before so I think it's just a question of mismatched expectations but even if People's expectations were that the protocol is going to print a ton um kind of I I think what we're talking about is like when it was printing maybe not a ton you know that's relative but it was definitely printing why do you think the Vibes were still bad at that point well I don't think that it's so easy for The Vibes to change you know it's like people people are there there seem to be a lot of people that are jaded at this point uh about the whole thing and have run out of patience and so it's like to the extent that there's been a little bit of minting uh when eth has gone up so much that's the issu it's like people are looking at eth going up and they're like well this thing isn't printing nearly as much as eth has gone up what what givs so it's it's an expectation problem yeah you don't think the bot has anything to do with that well the bot is like people point to that and I think the bot is a source of a lot of bad vibes in the community uh and I think it's really unfortunate because in general if we talk about equilibrium in general in a basic economics perspective you have participants in a market that are suppliers and buyers and the idea is that the equilibrium price is a function of suppliers and buyers and in the case of The Silo you have a really interesting set of holders that are long-term holders but can be buyers or suppliers to the market depending on the price and so you have a large set of participants that currently have like 15 uh to 30 depending on how you want to count million dollar of eLiquid value uh that is can be used to buy or Supply on the bean Market uh and it's all being held by people that are generally long-term oriented and maybe not all of them but the point is a sufficient uh minority of The Silo members that have all this uh liquid value in this unripe liquidity and beans uh have uh elected to buy and Supply at their chosen prices and in order to do so in a more efficient way uh it seems like some of the participants now have ways to uh execute in an automated fashion and so the idea that the use of beanock is getting more sophisticated that some people care enough about their beant stock positions to have developed custom systems to automatically execute their positions within beanock the idea that that's a bad thing to me it's crazy to me it's totally crazy and at odds with the general economic principle of equilibrium that you have holders within the system that are within their own free market incentives that what they're choosing to do uh buying and supplying on the market the fact that people are complaining and particularly complaining that the the automated execution is leading to tighter Peg maintenance to me is really antithetical to the to the whole idea of beanock so you say that it's the cause of you may say that it's the cause of the bad vibes and I think that it is but I think that from an intellectual perspective it's a crazy thing to be upset about I agree that automated execution is cool for beanock and good but you know why do you think when the price is like 0.94 the bot isn't bringing us back to equilibrium it's only when we're right above that kind of creates the sentiment that the bot I I don't know how closely you're looking at it but it doesn't seem like it's only when we're above it seems like when the price gets low enough there's also a significant amount of upward converts so so why do you think the economic incentive isn't uh like when it's at like let's say like 0 N9 it isn't bringing us back to it's not economically incentivized but when we're at one. the idea is that by converting yeah so by converting uh when the price is further away from peg in theory you're capturing an increase in bdv because you're either selling when the price is above Peg or buying when the price is below below Peg and so you're getting more bank for your buck and that should be reflected in an increase in stock and an increase in seeds so the idea is that the benefit uh for converting at any given price is only perceived to be worthwhile you know at some price below Peg and some price above Peg and you could say well to the extent that beanock wants to enforce or incentivize tighter conversions on one side or another of the peg what it can do is try to change the amount of stock or seeds that are rewarded uh for doing any particular conversion if that makes sense so in addition to just changing the seeds uh to change the overall longterm incentive of holding one particular acid in The Silo Dean stock could also Implement some sort of uh penalty or bonus system that would that that could also be used to uh incentivize or disincentivize particular converts uh now one problem with the bonus system is that there's a hard limit on the bonus that can be given uh because if there's a certain bonus for a convert uh that's so high people are just going to withdraw the asset that they're already holding that beanock wants to incentivize the conversion too Sell It Outside The Silo deposit it and then do that conversion that gets a big bonus so it's like there's some cap uh in terms of the grown stock uh On Any Given deposit uh to some capacity and we can talk more about what that limit is and whether the bonus that bean stock can offer is really enough to incentivize the exact conversions that it wants uh and I would say probably not uh but there's also an open question is to what is the optimal uh oscillations or conversions that bean stock wants and at this point as guy was talking about in the in the chat uh bean stock is not in particular focused on uh the the magnitude or the speed of the oscillations per se the frequency of the O oscillations it's only focused on oscillating and perhaps a more sophisticated model in the future could also take into account the magnitude and the frequency but that's a much more sophisticated Peg maintenance model which again this is an experiment uh and just speaking candidly like that that level of detail of the experiment is in my opinion uh you know it's it's not it's it's a long way out like that's a that's a very detailed now Bean is going to be changing things at a micro level to oscillate faster or slow slower um like that's intense you know yeah so you don't think uh like seed gauge is going to maybe inadvertently and not its like direct purpose but like you don't think that will increase the uh frequency or velocity of Peg oscillation of course it will of course it will okay I'm just talking about you know uh I mean at least that would be the Hope right that's if we that's how been designed uh so there's no way to know how it will actually work in practice or whether it's been properly parameterized until it's out in the wild but that's the hope of the system right that's why why it's been designed the way it is but that's totally different than taking into account like from a peg maintenance perspective the magnitudes of the oscillations um or the frequency of the oscillations which is more what I feel like the question is when you're talking about is the bot doing bad it's like certainly not from Beano's perspective uh until you add into the model some notion of oscillation frequ uh magnitude or frequency do you think that beanock is successful if it kind of stays at I don't know how many beans there are 30 million beans or like what like does Does Ben think Beanstalk will be successful at the current amount of Beans? US does does usage of bean Define your about the size it's about the size of beanock before the runup in which beanock was exploited so it's like let's just keep a perspective here on where we are you know like beanock was replanted it grew slowly over the past year and a half uh back to about the size it was before its one major runup uh before getting exploited and you know people are now hungry for a big runup and so your your question is is being star successful if it just hangs out here at its current size uh does it need usage to be successful it's like in the grand over what time Horizon are we talking here like in the short term the system just lost $200 million a year and a half ago like that is not something that like that's a big black eye on a credit based system a credit based system then you add on that everyone's just complaining all the time and just such bad vibes like the fact that the system at Peg at all is [ __ ] awesome in my opinion so now we're talking about what is success in the long term beanock was created to be a a a multi-trillion dollar asset in current value standards like is Bean Stark Successful by that standard if it's $45 million in market cap absolutely not so it's just a question of over what time Horizon are we talking talking here and you know I just I I've learned personally the hard way the problem with uh moving a little too fast you know that's the reality so to the extent that people are upset that the system hasn't grown just yet it's like I'm upset too uh this is taking a really long time this has taken a really long time and we've had almost no fruit collectively we've B we've seen almost no fruit of the effort since exploit so it's been basically two years since the system was exploited and from a relative perspective there hasn't been almost any fruit so it's like is that successful well it's really a glass have full glass half empty here thing and my my perspective is given that this is a community uh and a credit based system it's much better to have a glass half full approach than a glass half empty approach Does Ben have a revised target for when Beanstalk will hit 1 billion Beans? do you have a revised Target for when we're going to get one billion beans um and then also like do you do you think that now like you know you first thought after replant okay we'll reach a billion Beans by December but now do you kind of think like we need the changes such as seed gauge and multiflow uh so we need multiple Wells to to reach that or kind of what what's your thought on on getting to a billion beans do we need more utility do we need is there any work on agors or I I don't have a guess to share the the current model is as it's currently is just right now even before seed gate it's so much better than the model even that was exploited and so the idea is you know what does the system need doesn't need anything the system works you know this is more a question of I think uh and and from a community perspective and exogenous Market factors uh you know it's just uh the idea that the system needs to like uh you know through upgrading the model it's just going to like magically change its state I think it's totally misguided like the model is going to be at this point any refinement is pretty fine-tuning if that makes sense like on sure SE guge is a big deal but it's not like the system has a lot of debt you know uh there that's not going to change from the seed gauge so I I yeah I don't know if that's a reasonable idea so speaking about the debt do you what do you think about the stalk ha cut ideas do you think that's necessary or what do you think well necessary for what right like is the idea that beanock needs to grow right now um and if so you know does this need to happen to facilitate that growth like candidly I'm not so interested in having that conversation uh I'm much more interested in talking about how the model works and the health of the system from the perspective of the model and you know whether or not the current model can be improved uh and evaluating how improvements to the model affected the health of the model but the idea of like what you know what can we do to make the system grow right now I that's not that's not my domain I'm not interested in that to the extent that people want to figure that out and work to you know there have been Community organized marketing initi in the past and uh I like I said before I like the idea of like local farmer boots on the ground reaching out to other protocols that stuff all sounds great um but that's not that's not stuff I want to be up here pontificating about or ID ideating on that's not the stuff that gets me excited about this does usage does basin like volume Does Basin volume get Ben excited? get you excited is that something you want to pontificate on like can you say more about your question uh so like so like uh one of the things that I think was discussed or maybe it was community-led was like Dex aggregators eventually routing through Basin and then you know kind of buying Bean as an intermediary because it's zero fee decks um so like that would increase the volume on Basin uh is that interesting to you like uh Dex aggregators or I I don't really I honestly I don't understand the question well enough to like phrase it much more eloquently than that you're asking like about my excitement with respect to Art like the technology that we have we have contributed to being used it's like who wouldn't be excited you know uh I guess what I'm saying is like are you or does somebody else need to work on like getting Dex aggregators spun up to get usage on Basin which would indirectly get bean usage uh I don't plan on working on that at all do you know if any of the other Dow members do uh I I have no idea yeah so I'll hop in quick to mention that you know I think this is a a really good example of a place where you know if there was somebody that that had a proposal that this would this would be a good place for for that to happen if someone were willing to say Hey you know I'm I'm interested in taking on this particular item you know whether it's working with Dex aggregators or some other type of bizdev um and you know I guess what goes to my mind as well as you know then obviously not to speak for you but I think it's perfectly reasonable for folks in the Dow to have interests in specific parts of beanock or how it works or or and not have interest in other parts and I think as a DA we need to figure out how to meet those needs within our group and you know I I I think there are folks that have the knowhow the skill that could probably you know make those connections and start to to do that work I don't think this is something that like you know we should necessarily have to turn to one person or to turn to Ben or whatever and say Hey you know are you going to do this for us or whatever um but I do think the Dow has the ability to identify people that they trust to start to do I'm going to say business development in general Dex aggreg a being a subset within that but I think there is a place for the Dow to to find someone like in my mind the the I like the thing I I have spent time on in it from a macro perspective is trying to answer the question of how to create this decentralized sensorship resistant economy and so Basin building an exchange aent ized censorship resistant exchange is obviously uh a further step uh in that direction uh in that attempt so to the extent that Basin is adopted and used uh of course that's very exciting uh but the thing I'm interested in is trying to design the technology and implement the technology and figure out just the techn work uh to the extent that more volume would mean that it works more who could disagree with that but just personally from a philosophical perspective it feels like properly designed and implement the technology should generally be pretty viral in and of itself then you later on the fact that there's an initial user in the form of the beanock Dow that there is actually a decent amount of liquidity and volume uh uh you know there's no reason why if the tech isn't good enough it shouldn't generally just take off that's what happened with Bean Stu and so I I certainly don't I don't want to spend any time I don't view my role uh I don't like I I don't have any desire whatsoever uh to try to get people to adopt Basin or adopt beant stock I'm here to talk about how things work why they work the way they work uh why they're designed the way they're designed uh how the design could potentially be improved but to the extent of how do we get more adoption of basin like there's an intellectual perspective which is you know we need more Wells we need more liquidity it's sort of a catch 22 to attract liquidity but reaching out to R uh you know different routers and stuff like that you know that's a anyone can step up and do that uh we have a pretty big Community there's no reason why you know it's just you know the thing I'm interested in is how do how do things work okay uh I won't ask any more questions about that I mean maybe yeah there should be some way I don't know somewhere for community members to step up like Rex was saying um what do you what do you think about like you know as beanock grows are you like community members to step up like there's always been plenty of Grants and stuff like that to my understanding so I don't really know what you're talking about yeah there's plenty of Grants um yeah I don't have a comment on that I guess you know right along with that I would say you know that's I think that's something that the Dow should have space for and you know I would say that that is something that the Dow I don't know I don't know if we expect people to do work like that for free I know that if I had a business and wanted someone to do something like Business Development and marketing I I I wouldn't expect them to do it for free um but you know that's if if the community is interested in seeing the and to do it where the customer is going to be disrespectful like immensely disrespectful like the Dow as a client historically has been a horrible disrespectful client you want people to work for free it's like no what who's gonna do that you're so rude it's it's funny you mention that because uh the kind of the way that I got involved with with Bean talk in terms of development was you know I really wanted to see the the unripe seed Valu uh for unrip LP and and being at least go to parody you know if not to zero and I I had written I didn't know anything about solidity coding and I I wrote this little bip that just like changed the seed value as it was like a few lines of code uh and then some other you know people that were familiar with the code actually reached out and said like hey like actually you know because of this and that it's not going to work so we actually need to you know change some way that the The Silo was designed and this ended up being Silo V3 uh which the Dow actually compensated me for which I was you know satisfied with I I was able to allocate time to it knowing that I would be compensated for it uh and you know Silo V3 launched and even right before it's launched uh it it came back to it helped bring beanock back to Peg because of the seed parity so I think there actually is a lot of opportunity for people in the Dow to step up and do things and potentially get compensated for them if they you know are really showing that they're actually making progress and getting stuff done uh and so you I would love to see you know people work on integrating Basin with with other um with other dexes or or Etc obviously there's a few steps that have to happen before that like we have to have some other Whit listed tokens in the silos you can actually trade against uh other tokens like usdc for example as mod mentioned um but anyway just want to say that you know I'm just like a random person that found out about beanock like a week before the exploit uh and I feel like you know there's plenty of room for contributors here and uh maybe I'm misunderstanding Ben but I think he's saying like come on dudes like Step Up um you know we're a big Community we can all work together and and make this happen and it shouldn't be uh you know dependent on any one individual but maybe I'm misinterpreting thanks for that pizza man um Ben do you want to talk about like the rfc's like secure beanock or some timelines or things we have to look forward to hold on just want to kind a little bit more on the the seed gauge and the bot and that stuff you know the Seed Gauge and the bot system already has the seed set at for the unripe at the most uh aggressive that it could where the bean is equal to the lp and so there's no incentive to hold the lp it could make it that the bean is more heavily prioritized but I think that's crazy thing for beanock to ever do and now saying you know the system doesn't want liquidity it wants just liabilities in the form of more beans like beanock doesn't really want that so it's the most the current unripe seed parameters are already the most aggressive so the fact that the system isn't spending more time above Peg it's like clearly there's just a lot of sellers above Peg that's the way it is like you know people want their the price to go up to 104 110 it's like I that's just crazy at this point that's crazy so is it possible that we see that again sure but that the idea that that's the expectation just regularly that's crazy that's crazy that's crazy I think like Bean stck is already being so aggressive with how it's parameterized so I don't even think having the ability to toggle the the settings it's like as being Stu currently works you know most of the the the value in the system is in the form of unripe and the unripe is set as aggressively as possible so it's not really going to get much more aggressive with the SE gauge in theory like how could it well you you could argue that the seed gauge you know that is controlling how much stock people get and in my opinion a huge weight on beanock now is all the stock held by ripe holders um you know you've you've done a lot of talking about the model but I would argue that the model in its current state is a little bit different than the original model pre- exploit because of all of this stock that's held by unripe holders and know unripe holders are not actually themselves providing liquidity to the system so they can't exit the system so in terms of the model uh you know they're they're not able to leave uh and lose their stock unless they chop but apparently the chop incentives are not uh high enough but perhaps that's a different discussion uh but anyway know I I just feel like the reason that I proposed this unrip stock um haircut is because it's something like 90% of the the current stock amount is held by unripe holders and I'm I'm even an unripe holder myself and I would love to see unrip get paid back uh but I just feel like this The Silo would be a lot more attractive if you know if there's 10x less stock or one tenth of the amount of stock then that basically means that new deposits into The Silo are going to be getting you know 10 times as much ownership and therefore you know 10 times as much government's vote as well as uh 10x the prince uh what do you think uh you know wouldn't that be kind of bringing the model back to its original uh the spirit of the original model like the original model didn't you know have all of these debt holders um working you know not actually providing liquidity to the system the original model assumed that all the stock was being provided by people that were actually providing liquidity to the system yeah I don't think that's unreasonable like that's a pretty reasonable view to look at things from uh I guess I would ask uh to what extent would you want to freeze the unripe liquidity if that makes sense like no more converts um to kind of complement that or you're saying just by getting rid of the stock you sort of get rid of the I mean because I guess the thing is that from a convert perspective you're still potentially increasing your bdv when you go back and forth I guess that wouldn't really affect things if you have no seeds and no stock um then why would people convert I don't know why they would convert then it's like well Bean Stock's going to have people that could convert but it's unclear why they would ever do it like maybe it's better that no one can do it so that sort of becomes the open question under those circumstances to me is what are you doing with all that unripe you know beans and liquidity what are you going to do with it and should you just freeze it um I mean I know that the people that are you know against the so-called bot uh would probably prefer the bot not being able to convert however uh you know the unripe liquidity is also a way that allows Bean stuck to maintain its Peg when it's you know when it's way under um I wish that more people with unripe would come there's so little like the if you get rid of all the unripe stock there's so little beans and so little liquidity it is sort of like resetting that component of things now new Silo you know with all this outstanding debt how is the system going to respond unclear honestly unclear um but it's the same Silo right it's just that you know the the actors that actually can't leave are you know the stock amount is being adjusted appropriately to reflect the people that the same Silo it's the same Silo but the point is if none of the unrip have stock none of them have seeds none of them can convert then it's just like you know bean stock really is this extra set of liquidity and then just you know beans and liquidity that are liquid in The Silo if you know what I mean so yeah I'm not necessarily proposing turning off converts I mean perhaps it's a separate you know consideration I am proposing that I'm saying that if you are going to do one I think it would be weird not to do the other but then who is going to control all this liquidity that's that's locked up there like how does it you know what if you know eth drops by 50% tomorrow and we'd be like well shoot you know with the old system we could have just converted it back up and be would be at Peg no problem but if we turned off converts like what are you going to do with that liquidity it's just so I I totally understand your point I'm just saying it's so weird for there to be so much control over the price by people that have no incentive from being stock to do anything at all yeah yeah I mean I I agree like I I guess you could argue that the people that hold the unripe their incentive is uh you know they would want being to print so that the the debt would be eventually paid back so that they could eventually be made whole uh perhaps there are other ways of of kind of compensating those people that were um that lost value in the exploit uh but sure but you could say that's already the current incentive but clearly there are other yeah I mean I I I have I have talked to Dow members who prefer to hold LP because they're like well eth is going up if I if I convert my unrip be into unri unrip uh LP you know and eth you know does a 10x then they as far as I understand will get paid back 10x basically compared to just holding unripe um unripe Bean so that's actually you know potentially an argument for saying like hey perhaps the replant should have um kind of had like a dollar value Target saying okay you know on on this day whatever it was like April 15th 2022 uh you know this was the dollar value of your assets that should be what beanock is trying to pay back rather than you know this fluctuating uh you know unripe LP that's now going up so that means beanock has to pay back more to those people that were exploited like I I think that's a little bit uh you know not exactly fair to I totally agree I totally agree that's a separate but this is now a separate issue you know like yeah this a design issue around you know the convert incentive that exists even if there were no stock and no seeds which you probably also want to get rid of to to the extent that you can so to to me this like this falls under you know the like assuming that you wanted to get rid of the unripe stock yeah yeah which I don't know if it's a good idea or a bad idea it's very aggressive um you know whereas bean stock I mean I guess depends what type of aggressive you mean like being suck was originally very aggressive at the time of replant by not really hair cutting any debt and with its whole restructure plan or recapitalization plan I should say uh whereas to sort of haircut all of the the seeds that was a haircut after the fact you know this would now be another big haircut after the fact um so it's just interesting yeah yeah I mean like I think my argument is that the replant you know was the most optimistic outcome you know here let's give you seeds and let's give you even though just saying is it a so that I guess if that's beanock being aggressive this is more conservative but I guess you know at this point it's like the aggression comes more from like you know to some extent there's some attempt to like make the system grow if that makes sense like this is a looking at the system and saying well why hasn't it grown you know so now we're going to act more conservatively from a long-term Integrity of the per you know health of the protocol or the Integrity of the protocol perspective um I would argue that if if more than 50% of the stockholders agreed that this is the best plan then that is even a plus one to the Integrity of the protocol you know showing that mistakes or or you know improvements could be made to the system uh even at the you know arguable detriment of some people voting for it if they still vote for it then that is definitely you know the the thing that would be most positive for the system anyway I I understand that that's your opinion and many people may have that opinion but what the market will ultimately view you know over the long run is unclear if that makes sense so it's just there's risk in doing things like this agreed agreed um I mean I I would I personally would love to see this go through um maybe I would consider I don't know what my next step would be perhaps like writing a like um what do you call it like a a feeling out the community straw poll I guess is the word I'm looking for to see know if people actually V for this not vote for this or not yeah yeah um I mean I I'm I guess I'm only supposed to work on whatever the Dow you know wants me to work on but but I I would love to be working on that personally after uh after the the convert uh generalized convert um so perhaps anyway I'll I'll send out a a poll to the community but regard this just a quick time check we're at 90 minutes we got all day folks um not all day but we're doing good I think um okay more questions I see a bunch of questions in the barnyard chat it's hard to discern also I just want to say I see Harry Smith here to what extent Harry you just want to come up and voice your issues I think that would be really helpful for the community you know you're obviously very upset uh so to the extent you just want to come up here and have a conversation I think that would be that would be good for everybody so it doesn't have to be right now but before we hop off I think that would be great maybe let's keep chugging but hopefully Harry you you think about coming up here I see Bean bankman refr R followed up uh do you think it's important to set Do you think it is important to set timeline goals? time frame market cap goals or Peg maintenance goals that get Revisited from time to time and course correct when we steer away or don't meet them it's like what what is the goal like the goal is for the system to work what is it mean for the system to work well working is a really relative thing so you know at this point is it reasonable to have expectations you know on maximum volatility uh that the system would experience it's like maybe but honestly not really because it depends on the magnitude of the inflows uh during each market cycle at this point it's pretty hard to know what the magnitude of those inflows are going to be uh if at all so that's the it's just so hard to know like you could you could make an educated guess but to what that like I think the more interesting thing is to just watch it play out and then evaluate how the model performed if that makes sense versus making predictions uh or setting goals based on growth or how the system is going to perform it's like hopefully it performs better and better over time which generally it has and I think the the main objective is quite clear uh so like I I don't think setting these types of goals would would help with people understanding the main goal I think it would actually confuse people as to what the main goal is just for being stuck to never go bankrupt for bean stock to always be in a position where can oscillate the bean price above its Peg above and below its Peg but obviously it's it's harder to do it above so Ben dead man asks what do you think What does Ben think is the main event that will start growth? will be the main event if any that would spark an exponential growth cycle like pre- exploit I mean who can say man this is the market like the market does crazy things but I think that it's like focus on what you can focus on we as a community can focus on continuing to uh try to try to try to have a good conversations uh and make this an environment that's welcoming uh ultimately growth is is Downstream of a capital entering the system and most Capital that's going to enter the system is going to come and look at the Discord and see what's going on uh particularly at this stage of things and to the extent that we as a Community can uh act in a way that isn't going to turn people off you know that's probably a good place for us to start so Tyler B had a uh has an interesting question is right below Dead Man's and you know so they write why do we care What is the importance of the Silo? about the bean Silo depositor if we want utility for beans the token ship uses utility independent of The Silo in my opinion and I think that's a really interesting question and Ben I want you to touch on that a little bit maybe in the frame of like what is the importance this I this is kind of a fundamental beaw question like what is the importance of why is a silo important at all because I I do hear that a lot from folks that maybe are a little bit newer I think the silo is seen you know as of secondary importance to like having having the token be exactly $1 or growth of the you know the total Supply would you want to hit on the importance of The Silo and Silo depositors for a second sure and I think we skipped a bunch of questions um so I just want to make at least a few questions so I just want to make sure that we we answer those two but uh to answer this one the the the whole utility of being is that you can earn native positive carry that then you can use in theory in other places uh so that uh lending protocols that use Bean or Perpetual protocols that use Bean the pools that are based in Bean are going to have more attractive interest rates for all participants than pools that don't use Bean because Bean is the only currency with protocol native uh positive carry and so the point is in order to re uh uh receive that positive carry you need to deposit in The Silo uh on the one hand the stock system is great because it creates awesome incentives for people to not participate in Bank runs on the other hand it uses a timebase system which introduces another dimension to tokens which then moves them from erc20 fungible tokens to erc1 55s which uh are used to represent some sort of non fungibility or semi fungibility really uh uh of the tokens because there's a question of when were they deposited and so most defi protocols that currently exist uh use uh are really compatible with erc20 tokens and so there's a question of how can uh beanock uh facilitate the wrapping of that Silo yield while maintaining The Silo stock incentive structure which introduces some component of semi fungibility while preserving the fundability to the rest of the world if you will to the rest of the network uh and so that's the that's the whole uh that's the Crux of the the problem so why do we care about the bean Salo depositor it's like well Bean Stock's whole value proposition is dependent on The Silo yield being distributed a as beans are being used so you really want people to be using some bean that is a wrapper on on Silo yield so I see one of the question Sor this just to read the end of this uh comment from Tyler B uh every time people put money on a protocol of course they're going to have expectations bad Vibe is people losing a lot of money and no set of getting any of it back I agree that's a bad Vibe but it's like to what extent are those expectations just unreasonable 200 100% of the value in the system is stolen 100% it's not like it was 20% it's not like it was 10% it was it was 100% of the value was stolen so to the extent that any money is coming back uh to me it's uh it's a a testament to the strength of the idea of being stuck the fact that it's not happening at a time in a timely fashion that people are happy with it's like tough [ __ ] man tough [ __ ] that's the reality this is moving too slow uh you know I'm sorry you feel that way uh we all want the system to grow and we all want to get our money back and we all want beuck to be successful but the to say uh there's no sight for getting any of it back it's like there there was a whole major Movement by the community to restart the system that put beanock in I think a great position to succeed in the long term perhaps the community was too aggressive in sending the initial uh parameters when restructuring and some of that could be improved but the idea that there's no sight of getting any of it back it's like dude look around like look around seriously like projecting such bad vibes is just such it it's really not nice given given if you look in the GitHub and see what's been going on it's like come on man like it's just it's it's to me and I feel like it's just there's such a better way to express uh dissatisfaction than to be angry like I get it but at this point this this was the comment about spill milk it's like it happened it's really awful that it happened it it is so H it is the worst that it happened but we got to move forward so what are we going to do about it now you know that's where we're at that's where we're at but I think the no s side of getting into fact that's pretty so looking back to I do it does look like I missed um elastic Bean's question I do want to go back to it so elastic Bean writes do you believe the main purpose of the convert bot is to minimize outflows as a result of PODS being harvested yeah well well I think didn't we also have this other question from Tyler B um about resurrecting a root token or did we cover that I'm sorry yeah no yeah yeah let's go back up to that I I I when I read get to that last week being question too but I just want to make sure that we're yeah we're covering everything yep um I'll read it quick so U for integrating with other D5 Why can't other protocols integrate directly with Bean? protocols Ben you said that we have to resurrect the root token why can't they why can't they just integrate directly with Bean we want to promote Bean not root in my opinion second part let's say we don't have root what will it take to make bean easy to integrate with other defi projects so this is pretty this is directly related to the other question you asked Tyler B so it's a short answer which is that the root token was an attempt at an erc20 wrapper on Silo deposits so that would be the the benefit of uh Reviving uh resurrecting root um but if we don't have root we would still need some other wrapper I think uh that would be that would be the way to lower that friction all right so to drop down to elastic Bean um as I mentioned root do Is the main purpose of the Convert bot to minimize the outflows of Pods Harvesting? you believe the main purpose of the convert B is to minimize outflows as a result of PODS being harvested so it's interesting uh if you look at the meol it seems like a lot of the bot transactions are uh front running converts and this has been one of the things that's been discussed in the community uh around using a private RPC in order to not be front-run by the bot and that that sort of implies that uh at least in some cases uh some of the strategies that are being implemented and it's hard to know uh exactly is it one bot is it multiple Bots it's there's certainly multiple addresses being used but the idea is uh it seems like the Bots or bot are converting at the time when others are converting or selling and vice versa I guess selling when people are converting uh there's a lot of different like combinations and it's not as simple as the bot like you know and I love people saying devs or the bot it's like this is a pretty sophisticated thing system at this point so it's hard to know exactly what's going on but the the there seem to be certain instances where there are converts executed autonomously to front run other converts which would mean the opposite it would mean that the the strategy of that bot is actually meant to maximize uh harvesting or maximize yield because it's not converting above Peg it's waiting until others are going to convert that seems to be like an unripe LP dominant strategy on the other hand there do seem to be certain converts where there's no front running just converting a certain it's unclear exactly when uh and so that may be more of a mint suppression strategy uh it could just be a bdb maximization strategy uh it's hard to know exactly what the intent of uh all of the participants in the system are but that could be those could be some of the explanations Disabling Converts for Unripe we go back to that thing you mentioned earlier about maybe disabling converts um for unripe uh can you just elaborate more like what is the thinking behind the idea is it connected to the bot at all well it's just weird to me that you're going to have all this liquidity that it's being stck at that point if there's no stock and no seeds like the stock system is basically disabled it it's unclear what incentives it really is effectuating on people to convert or not convert particularly if there's this change that you're talking about around uh the maximum value of the unrip lp it's like so then why would bean if if Bean has no idea what the incentive is for people to act why would it allow people to act in that way with all this unripe value if that makes sense like the value is already locked why would bean stuck let you do whatever you want if there's no way for be suck to really incentivize it at that point like it's one thing if it has the stock in the seed system but if it has no stock and no seeds it's like I'm not suggesting taking away the value by any means I'm just saying what is the point of allowing converts from Bean Stock's perspective at that point you're saying from like the peg maintenance perspective like uh if the value of eth drops significantly and now we have like you know all this unripe LP that the value of the eth has decreased and it sort of holding the price of beans below a dollar uh whether it should convert is that your suggestion yeah yeah I mean uh instock still gives you you know extra extra unripe if you convert whenever Bean is away from Peg right so whenever it's over Peg you can convert to to just being and in opposite you know when it's under Peg and so but so isn't that a good enough incentive then like I don't understand your concern is your concern that there wouldn't be enough incentive for people to convert you're saying that without you're saying that if we turn off converts that people are not going to be able to convert at all and then that's going to lead to major inefficiency or you saying that we don't have we we still have the incentive structure such that we don't need to disable converts the latter yeah the latter and and you know in addition to that the the concern of if we wake up tomorrow and eth is down 50% uh because there's so much liquidity that's locked up and it's not going to convert up it could potentially take a long time for bean to get back to Peg after that like it it just seems weird to me to want to disable converts I assume I suppose yeah I don't think that's unreasonable I was just throwing it out there as something worth considering I'm not saying that it should happen it's just worth considering in the context of if they're going to remove all this unrip grown stock like considering the implications of having this sort of blob of unrip value that's locked but like the the incentives of being stuck are effectuating it are I guess to your point not zero but they're getting close to zero yeah yeah I see yeah I was just curious you know what what your thinking was as far as you know reasoning behind maybe wanting to turn off converts to yeah I don't necessarily think it makes sense it probably doesn't so looking down through Barnyard chat I see a lot of discussion a lot of really good discussion I don't see a lot of I don't see a lot of questions directed towards Ben and I apologize if there's one or two that I've missed but I I don't see a lot what do you think last call Ben you will you great read out the the bean bankman re fried comment about disagreement with the apy sharing comment yeah sure okay so Bean bankman writes have to disagree with the apy sharing comment we're essentially Dam eth beta at this point in time high apy shortlived so it's really not any beanock is doing well to be honest it's because it is paired solely with eth apy if you could call that of buying e yesterday to seeing the price today would be Bonkers as well beanock holding tight Peg not swinging between 90 and a dollar 90 cents in a dollar and maintaining high apy is what would be impressive and share worthy uh candidly dude your expectations of the protocol are just crazy they're crazy like we're essentially damed e beta at this point in time that's awesome that is awesome that's [ __ ] awesome that's amazing that's a great that's a great starting point like to the extent that we can uh to the extent that we can dampen the actility uh further while maintaining that uh you know beta to the upside and eth and the downside and eth it's like this is that's exactly how this is supposed to work at the base level you have a decentralized censorship resistant uh source of value that is trading against beans in the form of eth which is highly volatile and now this is a a way to try to take that eth exposure or that eth beta and dampen it like that's the that's the main point of the model so the idea that you say so it's not really anything beanu is doing well to be honest full disagree man full disagree full disagree full disagree and you say beanock holding tight Peg not swinging between 90 and a dollar and maintaining high apy is what would be impressive and sharew worthy sure that's when beanock goes viral when Bean goes viral and it's pumping of course that's impressive but that's just that's when everyone's impressed so from my perspective what it means to be impressed is uh you know I have much lower standards than that I have much lower standards than that anything else you see in the chat that you wan to I see Harry left too bad it's right on brand but it's too bad you know I think I I'm much more less interested in hearing from Harry personally given that he runs away that's just me shout out to people like Tyler B uh that are here at you know raising legitimate questions and bean banked and re Fri and NASDAQ so yeah it sucks that some of the trolls just are really trolls you know they're not just ah it's it's uh too bad all right I think that's uh I think that's all the questions it seems yep seems so well uh anything else you want to Closing statements finish with or uh I just want to say I I love beanock and I'm I I showed up today because I love bean stock and you know to the extent that people have problems with me it's like ah you know hopefully we got a lot of them out of the way that doesn't mean I'm going to be uh you know doing doing the right thing all the time but I'm I continue to try to be the best best version of myself that I can be and I appreciate that there's been a lot of feedback that I have not been uh doing the right thing in terms of uh my role within the community and uh hopefully uh hopefully today was a step in the right direction I you know being stuck is is uh we're talking about being stuck being around for you know thing long enough time right and that it affects you know my life and how young I am matters it's like yeah this is uh this is the Long Haul folks so uh sorry sorry I've uh I've been [ __ ] in the bed to some extent so see see you at some point talk to appreciate everybody's time and we will see everybody tomorrow about the same time for the Dow meeting so we'll talk to youall then thanks