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all right we have here I see soil king typing but I would say soil king maybe wait i'm going to read the the questions here and maybe we can answer it on the call uh might be best um if that's okay with you Silo Chad yeah yeah we can do both no problem epic and appreciate your questions Mr chad so soil uh silo Chad did I say soil Chad did I say soil Chad before you called them soil kink so I think you mixed them up i mean if we had a baby or I was typing but yeah yeah what's shoot me a DM so we'll get something moving is it the soil chat or the silo king or is that you know uh that's like a future rivals yeah we leave some for you know for the future uh future farmers the grandsons of early beantock adopters are feuding in this new uh I don't know um all right silo Chad asks "What is the best way to view clean beanto data today basin exchange shows liquidity on mainet which isn't helpful is there a single place that shows all token amounts from this chart for example did the data dashboard I built a while back get updated properly for the ARB migration uh so Kim care to answer sure uh so regarding basin exchange uh you just need to switch the network um there should be a way to switch from ETH mainet to arbitum uh and I mean the reason both are on there is cuz like the pools are still deployed uh and there actually is like some liquidity still on the ETH pools um but yeah you should just be able to switch it uh for the token amounts on the chart I guess I'm not really sure what you're asking specifically i mean I think that's I mean I guess that's those are the dollar values instead of the token amount so yeah um I mean obviously it's like you know onchain uh I don't think we have all those LP tokens tracked in the subgraph so I know we have the bean amount um and then as for the dashboard yes that did get updated cool thanks yeah the main thing I was trying to figure out is um you know where can I see the token values easily uh we had previously created that like beantock dashboard um in part for this purpose cuz you know the UI obiscates a lot of stuff to make it simple for uh for all farmers alike um but you know for simple things like uh you know what how many tokens are underlying the unripe uh unripe tokens for example just wondering if what the best place to see all that is yeah that that should be on the dashboard site if I'm not mistaken i'll look yeah there's like a total underlying in the unripe section i don't know if you see that it's I'm seeing 27 million beans cool and those are all um as far as you understand like working correctly a lot of uh inconsistency about that kind of stuff so yeah this should all be correct i I remember updating this like a while back so as far as I know everything on here is accurate does that answer your question Mr chad yeah I'm going to have to spend some more time digging on it um but I think it's getting there great great all right i see here Mr chad you've been a busy man as is uh typical for you uh always uh impressed by your output you want to present this uh proposal that you just dropped frankly not too much to present um I can kind of speak to it a little bit and I'm I'm pasting it in as I go to get around the Discord message limits so bear with me but um you know uh one thing uh kind of the motivation here is I've noticed over the the lifetime of Beantock that you know we've had a lot of team community etc calls around um you know all sorts of possibilities of where Beantock could go different uh options for helping um improve the protocol get things back on track and I think a lot of times what I've noticed is uh is that those conversations kind of die in the the you know the town hall and so something I'm trying to do here is you know basically I took the transcript of our previous conversation um and just spent a little time with uh with AI with the Beanstalk docs and a bunch of other uh resources related to the protocol and just tried to to pump out what a proposal would look like to give us a little bit more concrete um points of discussion for a conversation like this so hopefully this can be a little bit more fruitful for the sake of um having something concrete I just picked the automated conversion mechanism um that we talked about last time but uh I'll paste the summary from our call last time which you know there was a couple of other ideas we talked about and I'm happy to help uh you know knock out a proposal um from from you know for those as well this is all like you know basically straight out of an AI conversation that I'm that I'm having and so you know take it with a a grain of salt a lot of these I haven't like actually rigorously pulled on but gives us something to to start working with cool and are you going to post the rest of it or it's just this one message so I um if you look in general right now at it's about 2 pm Eastern time for people who are doing this from from the recording on March oh you posted it in the thread itself yeah so I I included a summary um farmer's summary if you will and then uh in the actual thread there's uh the longer proposal wow this is dope do you think it would be a good use of time to go through it here together as a group i think so and to help us uh formulate a bit of a conversation here I'm going to paste one last thing at the end real quick which is um discussion questions so I think last time uh ba basically let me just back out a sec what we're seeing here is um a proposal written by AI based on the conversation we had talking about um what an automated convert mechanism would look like uh for unripe and then uh you know just taking into account all the beanto documentation so basically all of the farmer farmers almanac um and I think the goal here is basically to say like what are the relevant follow-up questions for us to discuss on on this call um to figure out if this is a viable idea or not or to spend some more time you know iterating on um this basic proposal so I pulled um a couple example questions um at the end which you know maybe Ben or uh I don't know if uh Brandon's here but you know you guys be the would be the best to sort of speak to but um hopefully this is a helpful starting point thank you for taking the initiative Chad really so it's quite a lengthy proposal um I mean I I'm I I'm curious maybe we just leave a minute to see if there's anything else people want to use this time for otherwise we can probably just read it from the top and talk about it so I'll leave the floor open for like 30 seconds and then unless anyone has any other topics they want to introduce we can spend uh the majority of this uh session uh reading and then maybe discussing this proposal from Mr silo Chad all right Silo Chad do you want to read it you want me to read it i'll let you read it um and feel free to like you know as you as you go um jump in with with thoughts i think um yeah this is about as far as I can take the initial version but happy to use this as a as a a jumping off point for um for a discussion great summary beantock is currently struggling because a large portion of its assets are held by inactive users who aren't helping maintain the price stability of beans think of it like a seessaw that needs people actively moving around to stay balanced but most people are just sitting still this has caused the price of beans to fall significantly below its target of $1 and stay there for an extended period the proposed autocon convert mechanism would allow the protocol itself to automatically switch between different types of assets when needed to push the price back towards one currently these conversions only happen when users manually choose to do them the new system would be like having an automatic transition in your car instead of a manual one the protocol would make the necessary shifts without requiring user action especially helpful for balancing out the inactive unripe assets that are currently stuck in the system by implementing this change Beanstuck could more effectively manage its available liquidity potentially restoring the price stability that's essential for a functioning stable coin users who remain active would face no penalties during these automatic conversions while long inactive accounts would gradually incur small stock penalties when their assets are converted this balanced approach I don't understand what this means users who remain active would face no penalties while long inactive so once they do start using the system is that what you're suggesting yeah let's see here um maybe sounds like once people on the people who are autoconverted incur stock penalties what I read I think I I think it's just the uh Yeah so if you're not converting yourself we're now sort of imposing some cost on like uh not converting so it's not a bonus for converting it's a cost if you don't convert yeah I guess there's a couple ways to do this and for what it's worth this this summary is written from the call we had and so that it's kind of incorporating a couple of different ideas but I can see a world where just to to break this out maybe we we you know do a separate proposals or or lines of thinking for each of these but one form is uh all unripe um no users can convert their own unripe beanto converts all of it that's number one uh number two would look something like um you know if you don't convert unripe for some window of time um beanto takes over and potentially there's a penalty associated with that as well to incentivize people to do it um themselves and be active participants uh obviously all this is barring the actual you know economic and philosophical implications of that but just for the sake of like technically how it would work great the summary continues "This balanced approach aims to respect user ownership while breaking through the current gridlock to revive the protocol's core functionality potentially creating a path back to healthy operation without requiring drastic measures like completely restarting the system that's the summary the then below it we have a more formal proposal bib XX automated bean conversion mechanism uh summary this proposal outlines an autocon convert mechanism for Beantock that would enable the protocol to automatically convert between deposited assets based on PEG conditions and protocol health metrics this mechanism aims to restore Beantock's PEG maintenance capabilities by addressing inactive liquidity particularly from unripe asset holders by implementing protocol controlled conversions Beantock can more effectively manage its debt level maintain proper liquidity to supply ratios and restore bean price stability i'm wondering should we read the whole thing uh yeah I think we have time all right lock in ladies and gentlemen motivation beantock's peg maintenance currently relies on active participation from stockholders performing conversions in response to price signals however a significant portion of protocol value is locked in unripe assets held by inactive participants who acquired these tokens following the 2022 exploit i would maybe add with no activity required on their end these holders received receive neither seeds nor incentives to participate in peg maintenance activities this structural issue has resulted in several critical problems the inactive nature of unripe asset holders has created effectively dead liquidity within the system despite representing approximately $4 million in exogenous value the vast vast majority of exogenous value still in the protocol this liquidity remains inaccessible for peg maintenance the pod rate remains elevated and the bean price has reached historic lows resulting in beantock's least healthy state since inception traditional mechanisms like increasing the temperature or adjusting the crop ratio have proven insufficient since they cannot influence inactive participants without intervention beantock risk permanent displacement from its peg undermining its utility as a stable coin perhaps before going under the spec um maybe let's take a minute and you know so far do we do we agree or at least um you know does this motivation sound uh sound sound correct well I think the main point which you capture here is that there are no seeds for unripe at the moment and the result is that the conversion incentives that typically are at play are not for unripe assets and you know 99 plus% of the liquidity trading against beans is held by unripe asset holders so the conversion mechanism is sort of dead at the moment which I think it's totally on the money for what it's worth you mentioned that the seed incentives aren't at play for unripe assets however the max crop ratio is 1 one uh and the seed difference between unripe LP and unripe beans is already 1 one i would argue the incentives are the same at least with respect to seeds but I thought there were I thought there was no longer seeds for unripe assets that's correct so then what are you saying i'm sorry i'm not following well I'm saying that the seed you're talking about how the seed incentives don't apply to unripe assets anymore with respect to the incentive to convert up for example um given enough time under PEG just making the the claim that even even for non-ripe assets the the you know the difference in incentives by in terms of seeds are also one one uh so it's like in that sense you convert incentives up for unripe assets and nonrip unripe assets are equivalent in terms of seeds totally uh totally I think uh the point highlighted in the proposal though is that the liquidity is almost entirely unripe uh so even though the crop ratio for normal assets is 1 one which is separately a perhaps an improper parameterization the the bigger point here uh is that almost all of the liquidity trading against the protocol is actually totally oblivious to the seed gauge or seed system definitely i was just sort of making a you know less more marginal point that don't think the the seeds uh have a big impact at this point on unripe converting or not converting even if even if they had seeds does that answer your question Chad uh I think so great so let's move on to the specification the proposed autocon convert mechanism would operate as follows core functionality the protocol would gain the ability to automatically convert between asset types when specific conditions are met prioritizing conversions that return the bean price to its peg this would occur through a protocol controlled function rather than requiring user initiated transactions conversion thresholds automatic conversions would trigger based on delta B measurements across wells on the minting white list when delta B exceeds a predetermined threshold in either direction for sustained period uh eg three consecutive seasons the protocol would initiate appropriate conversions if delta B is persistently negative the protocol converts from LP tokens to beans if delta B is persistently positive the protocol converts from beans to LP tokens conversion capacity to prevent MEV exploitation and flash loan attacks conversions would be subject to per block capacity limits these limits would be proportional to historical conversion volumes with separate caps for each well the mechanism would use a Dutch auction approach converting the most advantageous positions first just going to jump here in here and say that um haven't thought at all about that like me side and this is just you know straight out of uh straight out of the docs and and AI um but definitely gives us a a jumping off point what do you mean by Dutch auction uh let's see i'd say ignore that piece for now i guess like I think the thing that it's going for here is um some positions are better to convert than others i think that's right um maybe better for the farmer i guess for the protocol it's probably all all about the same so maybe that line doesn't uh doesn't matter as much but I think the spirit of it is that there's um you know there's some some limitations on how much should be converted and potentially also a um an ordering of what should be converted first on the limits of how much to convert i think that makes sense although don't know if it solves the whole MEV problem uh I think we can we can iterate on that on the Dutch auction part i I don't know if it makes sense to me because it's sort of like converting the entire liquidity at once or not I would think so not exactly sure what the auctioning process would be given users are inactive um so I'm I'm going to sort of continue as if that sentence is not there if that's okay with you Chad great stock penalty mechanism the proposal incorporates a graduated stock penalty system to maintain fairness while encouraging active participation active deposits those that have performed transactions within 90 days would face no penalties for auto conversion inactive deposits would incur a partial grown stock penalty proportional to the percentage of their assets being converted this basically would scale the penalty by some penalty multiplier based on their inactivity duration from 10% for deposits inactive for 90 to 100 days to 50% to deposits inactive over 365 days so uh that would be either a linear curve or some other curve that sets the penalty multiplier as a function of time of inactivity implementation path the autocon convert mechanism would be implemented through a new facet in beantock diamond technical considerations uh I'm I'm skipping some of this just because it's quite dense [Music] um use multilow yada yada uh happy to go into any of these specific technical specifications if you think um it's why it's pretty short i guess I'll just read it the mechanism would leverage Beantock's existing multilow infrastructure to obtain manipulation resistant prices conversions would be executed in incrementally across multiple seasons to minimize market impact and prevent excessive slippage for unripe assets special handling would ensure that conversions maintain proper BDV accounting and don't impact the total percent of fertilizer sold or underlying ripe asset claims excuse me the mechanism would require the existing convert white list only automating conversions that would already be permissible if manually initiated by users uh benefits this proposal would create several significant benefits for Beantock one restore effective PEG maintenance capabilities by allowing protocol controlled liquidity management two provide a pathway for an active liquidity to contribute to protocol health three increase bean stocks resilience by reducing dependency on active user participation four potentially accelerate recovery of the bean price to its peg five generate valuable experimental data on automated stabilization mechanisms almost done here folks risks and mitigations the proposal acknowledges several risks and provides corresponding mitigations uh governance concerns this represents a significant departure from Beatstock's current design philosophy which requires active user participation mitigated by implementing sufficient checks and balances through governance technical implementation risk complex automated systems could have unintended consequences mitigated through comprehensive testing capacity limits and an emergency pause feature economic design changes modifying incentive structures could impact Beantoark's theoretical soundness migrated mitigated excuse me mitigated by preserving most original economic mechanisms while only addressing structural impediments mev and oracle manipulation automated conversions could create opportunities for exploitation mitigation through multiblock oracle averages and strict transaction ordering rules conclusion the autocon convert mechanism represents a targeted intervention to address a specific structural challenge in Beantock's current state while it modifies aspects of beans beantock's original design it preserves the core credit-based model while creating pathways for recovery by activating currently dormant liquidity Beantock can potentially restore its peg maintenance capabilities and demonstrate the resilience of its economic model this proposal acknowledges that successful stable coin protocols must adapt to changing conditions while maintaining their fundamental principles the autocon convert mechanism strikes this balance by addressing a specific challenge with minimal disruption to Beantock's overall design right there are three discussion questions here but we'll wait to get to those to see if uh silo chat or anyone else has anything they want to add all right so a couple things I want to comment on before we get to the questions posed by Chad i mean first the like existentially there is a question as to how the game theory changes if the protocol is now sort of telling the market that if there is no additional user activity in perpetuity in the future that it will still return the price of a bean to its value peg it's like well if I was going to leave the system at 40 and dump my beans but now I know that over time one of two things is going to happen either the bean price will return to its value peg in which case I'll be able to exit at a dollar or very close to a dollar or the protocol will run out of liquidity entirely before it gets to a dollar uh versus in the current situation the protocol is just sitting on $4 million of exogenous value and there's an open question as to whether or not that value will ever get used and used maybe isn't the most accurate term but whether it will ever get used in order to bring the bean price back to its value peg and that uncertainty on the one hand you know bean is below peg and shows no sign of returning to its peg uh anytime soon and so you could look at that and say clearly this you know this system is poorly designed but on the other hand or maybe not poorly designed but it's not properly designed but on the other hand as soon as you introduce this guarantee effectively that all of the the liquidity will be used to rep the system it it it changes people's behavior quite significantly or I would think it might and even if you say okay Well the system will convert up to 80 cents and nothing more i think the same dynamic is generally at play anytime you're below 80 cents the people that are willing to sell below whatever that target price is that the protocol will autocon convert back to uh goes down significantly and in practice I think that such a mechanism would effectively uh instate something like the Terra Luna conversion system where the the US was uh convertible to Luna par at the value target at a dollar and the result of this hard conversion rule where the protocol said you know independent of supply and demand imbalances it will honor the ability to convert or redeem uh $1 worth of Terara for $1 worth of Luna the problem with that is that it basically made it such that the the the game theory that I just laid out was was bound to play out at some point where the protocol didn't have enough liquidity to backs stop every US at its at its value peg but promised to do so and the result is a bank run that ultimately killed the system so I think we have to be super hyper careful and cautious with such a proposal as this and as much as I see the potential fruit for saying hey you know the unripe holders are not participating and that's killing the system to to implement this mechanism like a oneoff like a one-off rep where you know the the stockholders have to vote and then it happens you know and it's executed in a way where it's low risk and low MEV like that's one thing but to implement it into the protocol in perpetuity where above and below PEG the protocol is now sort of mandating conversions to forcibly keep the system in a certain state uh I think that would would likely be the kiss of death for the protocol so from where I sit like the only way that this is uh safe to do and even then it would be uh truly questionable as to whether or not it is safe would be to do this as like a oneoff you know protocol hasn't done anything no money's coming in and out let's repg the system and see how much liquidity is left curious what you think of that reasoning Chad and others yeah I'm curious to hear more from uh from the others here i think um uh the logic follows um with respect to you know the Teraluna um comparison and those sorts of things i wonder if you know there's something here uh to consider that you know I think when you when you look at Teral Luna um the the principle you mentioned was built into the entire protocol whereas in the context of beantock it would be limited just to unripe and of course unripe is the bulk of the protocol at this time but you know if it it's sort of one of those things where if it works it actually phases itself out quite naturally as people um you know discard their unripe or unripe um you know becomes less of a percentage of the overall system as time goes on so I think that like you know it's worth considering but uh worth it's worth considering that maybe it the outcome would be different in the case where it's not the protocols um you know principle for for all liquidity if that makes sense i mean it definitely makes sense that it would be phased out so even if it's not a one-time exclusive thing you know it would still be toned down over time i still think that it makes more sense as a one-time thing like in other in in otherwise it feels like the protocol is basically committing to burn the $4 million of exogenous value it has left and I don't know if that is the best way to handle it if that makes sense i don't have much new perspective to add other than uh came in quite open to the idea of some sort of autocon convert mechanism but uh follow Ben's logic quite clearly that you know it is likely to end up in resulting losing more liquidity faster as a result of guaranteeing that people can sell at higher prices at some point in the future i mean I I'm interested in like oneoff like slow there's a question as to how to implement it to be MEV resistant but I'm interested in like a oneoff slow rep using the existing liquidity that would likely have a lot of the liquidity drained from people chopping like just a full All right everyone leave everyone you know will have a chance to leave from zero to a dollar and then after that like unclear what would happen to the system honestly it probably have like a million or$2 dollars left in liquidity and a ton of debt and its price would be back in peg but unclear what would happen at that point and I I I guess I mean unclear here like unclear what positive catalyst would actually lead the system to grow even then from where I sit yeah i mean I I would I would argue that if there were some proposal such that you know it was developed and there was a bip that was being voted on that you know the price was going to be converted from you know right now at 23 cents up to a dollar um you know like were it looking like that proposal were going to pass like I would argue that external capital would be like flying in and the price would get to a dollar like before the converts even started um and then you know I'm assuming they would that that same capital would then you know immediately exit in an efficient market I think that is certainly what would happen in our market unclear how much demand there would be to make that trade But definitely the case that that would be the efficient thing to do and there's no way to stop it exactly from from my perspective it's just so gameable like it would have to somehow happen with nobody knowing about it but you know that's of course not possible agreed is that resolved at all by doing it over extend an extended period of time not really m not really unless Yeah i mean what was the time frame that you were thinking of when you when you said slowly uh like a minute ago Ben well a month i think it would have to it would have to happen at some predetermined but not predisclosed cadence i mean if we're talking about like a 4x return on capital from buying at you know 23 cents call it 25 cents right like it you know it's it's a good trade if it happens within you know even a few years like that's like a really like it's a great return yeah but if you don't know the time horizon and you don't know the amount of chops and volume that will leave before you have a chance to do it like you're still betting that the protocol won't be entirely drained of liquidity there's a question of how much size can you exit with uh I don't think it's a sure bet but it's definitely a pretty good trade to make i think yeah I mean I guess what I'm like you know years not months from my perspective yeah I don't think it would be uh it definitely wouldn't be like three months and not be gameable and then there's a trust question like who is actually doing this how are they trusted well I mean it it could be like baked into the seasons or the sunrise or something like at you know certain seasons i'm just saying who's setting the cadence if you know what I mean uh well that would be in the in the BIP presumably no I'm saying that would have to be hidden huh even if it were every season over the course of years some you know small amount i think every season still doesn't work because that's even gameable you'd have to have it like do it like real time continuously like implied by the time since the BIP was passed or something what do you mean by that every time someone interacts with Beantock like there's like a hook at the beginning of the transaction that updates the pools or something you restate why that would be necessary so that because it's like let's say no one has interacted with the protocol for a month uh or even for a season right for an hour and now the pro price is going to jump from X to Y you know in an instant when when the sunrise is called people can now bid up the price to Y then the protocol or you know up to you know halfway from X to Y or something the protocol will convert from half halfway up to Y and then you can sell from Y you can do that atomically and just extract value so but the implementation isn't even the problem the problem is more the attack Tommy's talking about where if people know that the price is going to go up then they're going to bid the price up from where I sit this is a very dangerous proposal i'm curious if anything if anyone else has uh anything they want to add or comment on this discussion classic has posted a couple messages in the barnyard chat if you want to read them out otherwise I can classic says "You not afraid it will open the run on unripe beans afterwards and beans too the problem of that capital coming in is we have no fees right now so we don't capture any long-term value from that." Yeah I just don't like the idea to be frank i don't like the idea just to be frank yeah I don't like it either all right we are a little over 45 minutes here i think this discussion was very productive i'm very grateful to Silo Chad for taking a first step and throwing out a proposal um you bet i uh if it's helpful I also I added notes from the last call and there were a couple of other things that were um discussed this is just a summary of what we you know what we talked about but um happy to you know talk about any other um you know any other potential plans but I think it would be good to get uh get towards um you know making either a decision to try to do something or um do nothing and uh it seems like there's still a couple of ideas floating around yeah yeah I mean on on this front I I don't like the idea that currently nothing is being done like in my mind the Pinto fork was the optimal thing to be done including to be done in the in the name of beantock and it's happening and a lot is being done on that front so even though the original protocol is not you know being touched at the moment I push back pretty heavily on the idea that nothing is happening so I I'm very interested in the discourse around what additional things to do but not sure I subscribe to the in fact I don't subscribe to the idea that nothing is happening classic says "The big problems I see bean have right now that stops me from slowly buying is lack of fees and lack of liquidity it gets over time that is locked into the protocol if either get fixed I can see a reason to buy bean i know from a coding perspective more expensive but yay from a fundamental problem in my h I am ho I never know if that's in my humble opinion or in my honest opinion feels only way to get longtail value uh yeah I think there's something to be honest in his in their honest opinion uh feels only way to get longtail value i think uh this is something that's been talked about a bit in the Pinto community about adding a fee to to swaps definitely uh a good idea all right does anyone else have anything they want to add to the discussion great all right thank you everyone for coming thank you Silo Chad for your proposal i feel like we're getting somewhere even if it's slowly and uh Rome wasn't built in a day thank you everyone hey everyone bye