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DAO Weekly Meeting #65

Date
April 6, 2023
Timestamps
ā€¢ 0:00 Introduction ā€¢ 0:14 Operations update ā€¢ 2:06 Design update ā€¢ 4:52 Updates on recovering funds ā€¢ 50:11 Closing statements
Type
DAO Meeting

Recordings

Meeting Notes

Operations update

  • The Sunrise Improvement BIP draft will be shared very soon. There will also be a BIP to enable Stalk delegation. There will be a forum to fill out in the Discord to become a delgant. Silo v3 will be audited in the next two weeks. There will be a write up with an updated timeline in the next week or so.

Design update

  • SweetRedBeans is working with the rest of Beanstalk Farms to figure out what UIs are needed over the next quarter. Working on the Wells UI, and the landing page. They are also thinking about what UI updates will be needed for the Mayflower BIP.

Updates on recovering funds

  • Publius does not want to spend their time tracking down the stolen funds, but if people want to look into that Publius is happy to give information about what they have given to law enforcement. Publius is working on something that they can publish to show the DAO. Publius thinks this is part of the tragedies of the commons with DAOs, and if this was a company this probably would not have fallen through the cracks.
  • IPOandChill thinks the DAO should engage with a third party that represents the DAO. The third party that they want to engage would be the Analysis on Chain team. They are unsure if a lawyer would really be helpful in this case.
  • The Analysis on Chain team is asking for $40,000 for a 3 month retainer.
  • AlBean thinks we need both a lawyer and a analysys firm. Sync is going to look into the types of firms Euler used to recover their firm. Publius thinks it is better to measure twice and cut once. It is unclear what is the best route the DAO should go. The way AlBean sees it the two main routes are to verify what Publius is saying or trying to work on our own.
  • Publius is planning on sharing everything that they have shared with the FBI but names. This will include a report from Lossless. IPOandChill pushes back and questions if it is worth it to share it to everyone or just a couple of people. Publius thinks this is the fork in the road, and up till now it has only been a couple of people who have access to these documents. Members of the DAO feel like they do not have enough clarity and this has sparked this conversation.
  • Publius mentions in the current regulatory environment all that the DAO can do on-chain investigation. You can break it down into where the contract got funded and where the exploiter moved funds into after Tornado Cash. If the DAO wants Publius to share all of the information they have, it would be assumed the exploiter would know what the FBI/ Publius knows.
  • Sync thinks there should be a DAO led engagement with Jason and look into where the funds are
  • Publius wants to avoid spending money to get to the same conclusion, this would be spending money just to spend money.

Transcript

All right, let's let's kick things off you and everybody. Unfortunately, I'm a bit on the go today, so apologies. There's any background noise or anything at that. Going to try to not do the majority of the talking to that. We'll just give a brief update on like the Mayflower. I'm in France, which is to say that the think over the next few days we're putting a bow on the sunrise improvements code which I'll share a draft the for with the Dow within the next week or so ideally and in addition a couple of months ago or the conclusion of the most recent that like in January or early February there was a lot of discussionabout governance, whether there is a call that was held and recorded as well. And so there is another proposal that will go out related to a stock delegation and enabling that fund snapshot for the various different snapshot pages in the stock ecosystem. And so as part of that, we're also going to be opening a forum in the discord where folks can apply to be a delegate.So if I had a little template write up, you know why you believe you'd be a good delegate, among other things, and along with your address. And then I'll give people the opportunity to delegate votes to another farmer in the event that the the proposal passes. So stay tuned for that as well. In other news, the site will be three changes which include the unripe Seeds Change are hopefully going to start being audited within the next two weeks and I believe the pump audit will be done from Holborn within a couple of weeks.And the last step of the Mayflower update that we need to get out of that would be the integration that between Wells and Bienstock. And hopefully that audit can start at the conclusion of that pump audit. So they're still looking like late May or early June for the whitelisting of a as well and silo. So I'll leave it at that for now.And still planning on publishing a write up with everything I just described. Hopefully in the next next week or so. Red beans. Anything you want to share on the design front?I Yeah, spend some time getting aligned with with the rest of the team on the required UI work for the next few months. And so start with the Wells interface and over the last week spend some time sort of tightening the messaging on the landing page, focusing on sort of the composable design of the amp. And I think that's in a pretty good spot.And over the, you know, by the end of the week hoping to really have the UX down for managing liquidity and incentives. So adding and removes and understanding incentives associated with, with adding liquidity. And then I sort of think we're on track to finish the UI by the end of the month. And so we'll well we'll have some, some buffer time to, to make some improvements with the exception of a couple of illustrations which I think will bleed into early May, starting to think about some of the UI work required for the Mayflower update.So that includes what we want the Deposit SPG Unchained to look like for the I.R.S.. 1155 And in addition, thinking about some of the adjustments that we might want to make for to the to up the end up money with the silo experience as a function of some of the the work coming from the Mayflower update and in addition planning to give the sunrise improvements UI.It was finished maybe a month or two ago but planning to give it another review as we start working on it and as that gets ready to go out and then beginning work on what a stock the sorry excuse me the stocks delegation UI still in early phases, but I think that it should be reasonably, reasonably quick. So that's sort of the the laundry list of things happening on the design front.And you know, if you have questions, feel free to to pay me or to leave a question in the chat with. Thank you, sir. I don't see Chad as far as like contract level engineering goes. I think the timelines are shared for somewhat comprehensive read benches described what they think that tells you. I'll be ready to go within the next month or so and I'll just see.Harry Smith asks may have missed this so on track for maybe and it was just a minute ago I mentioned late May early June, it's looking like. But again, hopefully we'll have a document that everyone can can point to in the next couple of weeks. All right. So I know there was a lot of conversation last hour meeting and within the last week or so around you know, attempts to track down the exploiter and such.And I think I believe publishers had something they wanted to add to the conversation as far as that goes with regards to asking their counsel some of the questions that popped up in the discord over the last week. Do you have anything you want to add on that front with GM? Yes, thank you, sir. So we're approaching the one year anniversary of the exploit and particularly recently, it seems like there has been some success at fund recovery.And so while we still remain pretty pessimistic about the chances of recovering funds and don't really want to spend our time on it, we do recognize that there's a lot of excitement and desire to that, to spend time, have someone spend time figuring out anything that can be done at this point in time or any information that hasn't already been discovered and figuring out what is the best thing to do with that information.So from that perspective, we are trying to put together some sort of written document. We're working with our counsel that has helped us coordinate with the FBI over the past year to lay out, you know, everything that we've done, the things we've communicated to law enforcement, the information that they have and potentially other stuff. Now, we spoke with counsel this week and they advised that, for example, releasing specific information like the names or the phone numbers of the FBI agents that are involved is probably not a good decision to make.But on the other hand, you know, if the FBI isn't doing anything, maybe it isn't the best interest of everyone to have. You know, the Dow and victim's generally be able to reach out to the investigators. So we're trying to figure out exactly, you know, the right amount of information to disclose, again, particularly at the margin around like personal information of people that are involved.But we hope to have something that we can just publish to the Dow or to the discord in the next week or so. And we are working to try to get our counsel, who again, led the whole process of dealing with the FBI and the US federal prosecutors, to have him potentially come and speak during one of the next down meetings.I don't think they'll be able to attend on Thursday, a week from today, but potentially two weeks from now. So our hope is, again, while we don't really want to be spending our own time on recovering the funds because it's particularly high, we do want to make sure that we're, you know, being as transparent as humanly possible in giving everyone else any information that they could want to take action themselves.So from that perspective, hoping to have a lot more to share on on all of this in the next week or two at the most, let's call it. And I would just say that we recognize that perhaps particularly now looking back a year like in the moment, things weren't communicated as perfectly as possible. And so like the fact that in last down meeting, it seems like the crack in connection was a new information for a lot of people.That is yeah, that stinks. And again just want to reaffirm that we are going to try to do everything we can at this point to make sure all the information that can or should be public is public and available so that that's the update on that front from us. Thanks for this. I think I just might have missed this one piece.Who is it that you were proposing that may be able to present to the Dow in a couple of weeks? Our personal counsel, the three of us, we retained some counsel at the time of the export to help us deal with the prosecutors and the FBI and all that craziness. And we spoke to them this week. And they they seem open to just, you know, coming to the meeting and answering everyone's questions.So if people have things they want to understand, when did this happen? Why did this happen? You know, when was this filed? You know, you can get it straight from the horse's mouth because we've really been trying to follow the advice of our counsel and all of us to try to do the right thing. And at this point, it's like we don't really want to be in the middle of all of it because it doesn't seem like the most fruitful use of our time.But again, if particularly given how many recent exploits the funds from which have been recovered, it does seem like a no brainer to try to, you know, share any information that may be helpful for anyone else to go figure stuff out that they want to do. So this is and I think in practice, this is a a great example of the tragedy of the Commons around a Dow structure where it's like, we were doing this, we filed an FBI report, but we're members of the Dow.And so there's some open ended question around reporting obligations to the Dow. How much do we need to tell the Dow in the moment? Well, we just had an interview with the FBI versus we're just members of the Dow doing our own reporting to the FBI. So I think had this been a company, these types of let's call it miscommunications or whatever you want to call it, was probably less likely to happen.But these are the growing pains of being in a Dow. And to that end, want to acknowledge that we probably could have done a better job of communicating more of this in real time and at this point, I want to just affirm that if people have information that we can, you know, help people get access to, we're going to we're definitely going to try to do our part.So apologies for not being the most transparent throughout the past year on this. But I think, you know, it is important to acknowledge we don't know the right steps here, and particularly in the immediate aftermath of the exploit. It's like we know we're under investigation and we just want to do the right thing that our lawyers are advising us to.And at this point, it's like, yeah, there's probably more information that could have been disclosed. And so we're going to try to make sure all that information is now available. Right? So I want to say to some questions from the community. So feel free to unmute. I see IP, I'm sure when I haven't, I need to go ahead.Hey, what's going on, everyone? And sorry, I haven't checked the chat, so I apologize if I cut anybody, but will be quick. Thanks for the comments. I wanted to ask, would there be any objection? And I've seen sink posts about this and I've thought about this a post about it myself. Would there be any objection in working with this individual, Jason, who I think runs that analysis on chain company in order to facilitate a few things?One, just understand what happened and maybe to follow up on the new information, which I think specifically the crack and stuff I think was new to everybody who heard it during the meeting when it came out.I think that solves a lot of problems. Problems. If you're saying you want to be in the middle of this and you don't want to spend any time on this, I agree. I don't think anyone here should be spending a ton of time on it because I don't you know, unless someone wants to raise their hand, I don't think we have the expertise necessary in order to go out and find out exactly what, if anything, happened and then to your it sounds like your counsel is your personal counsel.Right? They represent Publius, you know, represent the debt. That's exactly so. You know, they're you know, everyone should keep that in mind, right? I think, if anything, it might make more sense to have a third party that is working for the Dow. And in that regard, if the funds that oh, yeah, I'm not suggesting that our counsel like starts working for the Dow more just in terms of trying to get all the information on the table, we thought it might be a good idea to have the counsel comment answer everyone's questions and then the Dow can go from there.But yeah, I think that's a good clarification. Not not suggesting that our counsel becomes the counsel of the Dow. Exactly. Good. So in that case, you know, my recommendation would be like we should probably work with someone who represents the interests of the Dow. And in that case, if you know Bienstock farms where, you know, we wouldn't need like a BOP or bit for this piece on farms were to appropriate the beans that we've already minted for this engagement, which wouldn't last long.I think it would probably be the most fruitful use of everyone's time because someone else would be owning it, be it would be a third party. And see, it wouldn't require, you know, Publius or even Goebbels's counsel to do any additional or super additional work. I'm sure the counsel could also just work with this third party to share any information that they've gathered.You know, lastly, I think while information is obviously helpful in, you know, you have to remember, like this is not this is a situation where maybe too much information. Yeah, I don't know if the exploiter is in the discord or not. Right. So if we're actively trying to investigate what happened to the funds, I think it may make sense to have a third party handle this and do it in a way that makes the most sense for the Dow versus simply having a Q&A session where people just ask those questions is going to come out and then nothing's going to happen.I think the main point here is that we've never done a full, deep dive into what exactly happened either. Right. But, you know, given this crack and what happened right before and then what happened after, there probably other questions about the exploit that this person will look into that we haven't had yet, because clearly this is something they do on a regular basis.So my vote would be I think it's great if your counsel comes in, answer some questions, but, you know, having an FBI agents name and phone number isn't going to help anybody here. I mean, I personally am not going to contact anybody in the FBI. I don't know if anyone else is dying to do that. I would rather just have a third party deal with this.And it looks like we have all the resources ready to go and we could probably start this tomorrow if we wanted to. And I think I don't know if there's anything else you want to add. Sorry. Can we clarify this third party that we have ready to go? Is that the gentleman that gave a presentation the other week on the analysis firm or is it someone in a law office or some kind of law degree or some lawyer type?This is someone from the analysis firm and know, I think I don't know if you want to jump in, jump in and don't help in. Jump in and share any more details. But there are a couple of details in the the chat, the separate chat about where Sync has been recording all the different conversations he's had on people.But this is a person who runs an A chain on chain analysis firm who would look into the details of the transactions in and out potentially of TSI tornado tracks. And the objective of this would be to understand or the ultimate objective would be to try to understand, you know, where the exploiter or who the exploiter potentially is.And, you know, the ultimate, ultimate objective would be a recovery. But this is not you know, I'm not like I don't know if a lawyer is going or unless I want to clarify, like, I don't know if a lawyer is is the one that's going to be doing any of this work. Right. The whole point is where you engage someone who can actually do the work.Whereas, you know, if we do need to work with law enforcement more closely, you know, this person has contacts with law enforcement and potentially legal teams that can help. Hey, hey, this is this is think. Yeah, I just want to build off of what IPO just mentioned now. So just for everybody's awareness, if you didn't have a chance to follow up on last week's call, the founder of analysis on chain, they rebranded this week to intelligence on Chain.They're a company based in the United Kingdom. They specialize in on chain investigations and these types of things. Regarding exploits, he presented it to the now and I connected him with the staff arms team afterwards, his proposals to proceed with a three month or less investigation of all the transactions have transpired on tornado cash since to exploit. It's over 22,000 more days to pass.The more transactions that we have to go through. And then, you know, his he also has contacted FBI offices in Seattle, Chicago, from his from what he stated. So, you know, considering the fact that the counsel that Pugliese is referring to are their personal counsel and they don't represent the Dow, I do believe that, you know, any information that, you know, their council could provide to support a, you know, more in-depth investigation, it would probably be more worthwhile to be providing that information to, you know, somebody that specialized in this type of thing that can engage their contacts with the authorities to kind of potentially escalate this and kind of follow up on what thestatus of this is. I just don't think, you know, if the founders of this project were not informed or unfortunately not successful and, you know, getting the FBI to kind of keep them updated on where things stand, I don't think any of us individually are going to be successful. I think that's where a third party kind of between representing the Dow and the interests of the Dow collectively could potentially make you know, could potentially help us get some clarity on all of this.So to that regard, where things stand with that is, you know, Jay has provided a proposal and, you know, it's kind of up to being staff arms to either proceed or, you know, whatever the Dow wishes to do. So his proposals for $40,000 for three months of an investigation after that, you know, his his team could automate the monitoring of tornado cash for $1.5 thousand one point 5ka month.So it's very minimal costs, automated monitoring after the initial in-depth investigation and the investigation may not take three months. It could take two months, in which case he would prorate his cost. Right. So it wouldn't necessarily be 40,000 if he can do it in a short amount of time. So I just want to be clear for everybody's awareness.That's where it stands right now. And yeah, so thank you, Publius, for the clarity that you provided. Longer than three months, but we have to be more. I don't think he I don't think he's estimating it'll take longer than three months. If anything, he said it could potentially take less so and we can always ask him, you know, so we have a group chat open with him.And, you know, he's also he's also amenable to taking his payment and beans. So, you know, that's that out there. Just a quick point here, Jason. And his offer is, of course, very compelling and we should consider it. But I think we need to be very, very clear about the role that Jason can play as an analytics firm that quote unquote, has contacts with the FBI versus effectively hiring or finding a point contact something maybe like our own legal counsel.That would basically be our point of contact with law enforcement directly because there's a big difference between having an analytics firm that is just going out there doing chain analytics that just has friends at the FBI. That's not an official capacity. That's not an official channel for victims of of a hack of this magnitude to kind of get updates, get information.We need an official channel, whatever that looks like. And I'm sorry, but this thing through Jason and his contacts, that sounds good, but it doesn't sound official enough, right? I almost feel like we would need both things. Right? Something along the lines of our own counsel, somebody that basically knows how to talk to law enforcements, law enforcement agencies, how to engage, what the fuck to doing these kinds of situations.And then maybe somebody like Jason and his team to actually go out and like, do the detective work and find as many clues as possible. Right? So can we make that distinction? What do you guys think? Is it worth making the distinction that we need these two types of people, either a person or identity, to take a lead in organizing the whole down interest in terms of finding what happened and following up with law enforcement, and then another separate entity to help with the analytics and doing some for discovering that I don't disagree with you, I don't disagree with you.And I'm actually I've been looking into how all the finance has been. You know, they provided more clarifying details as far as their recovery effort a few days ago. So I've been looking into some of what they've what what their approach was. And to your point, they engage a lot of different parties. Right. So I'm I will do my best to, you know, see potentially if there is a in that regard, a representative on the legal side of things that potentially would be open to kind of being that focal point between the door and, you know, Jason and law enforcement or whoever we end up engaging.So we just saw that clarity a few days ago, obviously, because although it was kind of silent at the time last week, file called, we don't have that. So I'll follow up. I can for sure. Yeah. Three. That's more important than than the analytics to some degree, Right. We already have some good data. We just don't know what happened with it.If the FBI used it, if it if it's still ongoing, if if it turned into a dead end or legit, they just won't say anything. And if that's just what's happening, then then maybe, maybe that's enough to just get that confirmation that like, yes, the investigation is ongoing and that's it. I mean, that's what police are saying. Right.So but I think to add to that, our being one of the I think it was clear in last week's meeting that we were a little frustrated with the conversation. Part of it is exactly what you're discussing, which is like what is what is it that we really hope to gain from this? And in the immediate aftermath of the exploit, we engaged, we personally engaged at least one or two firms for, you know, ten or $20,000 a pop to try to figure this out.And they said the same thing. We have connections with the FBI, connections with the Secret Service. We'll get you in touch with the right people. We've got the forensics people. So we personally went through all of this and spent money to figure this out. And it all goes nowhere. So at some point it all just gets funneled into the.Yeah, you got to go through the FBI and they're going to do their investigation. And we we went through all that. We had a formal like almost a I think it was a two hour interview with multiple people at the FBI. So it's like we don't we don't really know what else there is to hope to get from this.But if we can, we collectively, the Dow understand here is the missing links. Or here's the thing that if we had, then it could make the FBI move. Like maybe then it would make sense to spend money and resources here. And to that end, it may be helpful to have a, you know, our counsel come and answer a bunch of questions that people understand.Here is what's been done here is like our expectation of when we could or when we should expect to hear from the FBI. Here is what we can based on the current information. Here is what we can speculate as to what is the status of the investigation. Is there a way for us to get confirmation on the status of the investigation?Unclear. So, you know, I think this is just my personal opinion. If we are going to get serious collectively about trying to recover the funds at this point a year later, probably better to measure twice and cut once because so much time has already passed and think that it would probably behoove all of us to spend a little bit more time figuring out.And maybe we have to get the the the on chain analysis. I forget their new name, but maybe we get that guy back in. He should be here for the down meeting where our counsel was there. And we can all come together and try to figure out, you know, the current status and then optimal next steps from there.Because I think, you know, to both what IPO and Joe was saying and Albin was saying, it's it's clear that there is stuff that could be done to at least get everyone on the same page and understanding exactly where things are at. But on the other hand, it's you know, to Albion's point, it's not clear that I think Jason is his name.It's going to going to be able to give us collectively the affirm, the affirmations or the information that we that we really need. Yeah, the way I look at it, I see it as we can spend money on two things as a Dao, right? We can spend money to verify that what Publius is saying about the FBI is correct, right?So there is a degree where somebody could say like, hey, they're saying that they spoke with the FBI and the FBI is is saying we won't tell you shit. And maybe some people just want to verify that. How much money do we want to spend on that effort? I don't know. Is it worth spending that money on that effort?I don't know. That's not a question for me to answer. So personally, personally, I. I lean more on the side of just trusting people. But maybe that's a flaw, right? Well, I don't think you need to trust us, but I think, like when our counsel is talking to the Dow, this would be a good thing to try to understand of.Like, is there a way for the Dow to independently verify what Publius and prove his counsel of telling off? Can we ask the FBI on the status of the investigation? Is there a person who we can ask, you know, these questions, one of the interim, like we've never dealt with law enforcement in this capacity other than for this.So it's it's all new for us, too. But in our conversation with counsel this week, they indicated that sometimes there will be like a special victims coordinator appointed by the government, such that there is a point of contact for people to reach out to and ask questions about. So, yeah, I think there's a lot of stuff that can be done at a minimum to get, you know, past the question of is what we're saying true?And then on to more substantive questions about, well, how can we potentially move the ball forward here? But there's no need for everyone to trust us. There has to be some way for the government to affirm, you know, there's an investigation going on. There's I'd have to believe. Yeah, I agree it to me the past it seems to be, you know, working under under the assumption that the FBI is indeed behaving this way and verifying that that's a side quest.Right. Once we reached the same conclusion that the FBI just won't give us any more information, the only other option we have is to spend money to potentially get more information that would potentially basically boost the investigation somehow. So that that's how I see it. Basically, it's just like, let's just spend money. Maybe we'll find something else that will be beneficial to the overall investigation.But somebody here, Jay posted that something interesting, which is that you are did work through some of this stuff. So I'd be curious to see like the path that they took in terms of just whoever they engage with and what they approached and basically what their experience with law enforcement was like. I don't know if anyone has contacts there or if we can get them to come talk to us or just maybe a private convo between whomever.That would be good to follow up if anyone has any leads there. Hey, just a few things. Appreciate the comments. My view would be once again, there's no official Dow effort. It seems like this is some hodgepodge potpourri of, you know, Pugliese has counsel and they've been talking to the FBI and maybe they'll come and give us an output of what they've been doing.But there's been no Dow effort to get a clear summary of what happened on the transaction side of things, what is the information that is out there, blah, blah, blah. I just think in general, to me it it's common sense that there should be some DAO led effort. That seems to be the common thread in all of the president.Examples that we've seen where people have had successful recoveries. And I'm sure that's been the case for recoveries that are ongoing. As a greater point, I don't I don't think this is a situation where you move on from I mean, if JPMorgan got robbed yesterday, I don't think they're going to worry about, you know, the funds are recoverable.Let's not do anything. I mean, if something illegal happened, it's an ongoing legal issue no matter what. We don't choose whether or not to to work with the FBI. If the FBI is aware of this, then I imagine they're working on it. And if we need a direct line to the FBI, it looks like we are. Publius already has one and they've been conversing with them for a long period of time.So maybe the issue isn't doing a direct line. It's more maybe that we just need more transparency on what's going on. On the analytic side, this is something that we're not doing at all. So my personal view would be given it's it seems like we can control this engagement however we want, right? We can limit it to three months, we can cut it off.It's not something that's going to run forever. It costs a lot of money and we can cap the cost. So if it's a cost issue, then, you know, we can talk about numbers. It looks like the beans have already been minted and they're not being used for anything. And this sounds like something meaningful it could be used for.And the person is also ready to go if the issue is we don't know what this person is capable of or we want to talk to the person more, then I think maybe we can invite him back and we can have a more in-depth Q&A session of, you know, what this person is going to do, what tools they're going to use, what the outputs are going to be, etc., etc..But let's try to be specific about, you know, what the pushbacks are so we can have either the person com or we can have all those questions answered because in my view, this isn't a we you know, this is one of those situations where we don't have it any effort at a doubt level. Right. And I don't want to put people in a position where, you know, they're now using their counsel to represent the Dow and then, you know, the council is now at a conflict of interest like that.Doesn't make any sense. And that's not good for any of us. So Publius is what I potential describes as part of what you would hope to include and some artifact you share with the Dow, i.e., you know, information or potential leads on where the deposits and take came from, if there have been any withdrawals, anything like that, Or is that not really in scope of what you're referring to?Yeah. So based on our conversation with counsel, it seems like we should be able to like, share everything that we've shared with the FBI except like specific names, let's call it, of the FBI agents or, you know, basically everything else should be shareable. So we've got like Lossless did a report, Blend Analytics did a report all this. There was a big package of all the relevant information that was shared with the FBI.And I think that, you know, the vast majority of it should be publishable to the public. And so we're going to try to, you know, again, in the next week or two, publish all of that. If that answers your question. But my pushback on that would be, do you think it's helpful to publish all the information? I mean, the reason I think it would be good to engage a third party is because this person would be doing this.They would be sharing their findings with maybe a smaller group or, you know, like people who would be working on this project. And then depending on any developments or outcomes, we would then act accordingly. Do you think it's helpful just from a security perspective, given the exploiter is still out there? The funds are apparently still in DC to share absolutely everything that we know about what happened to everybody in a public forum.Well, this is sort of the cross in the roads that we the fork in the road that we have to choose collectively, which is that to date, that's generally the thing you just described, is how things have been going, where there have been third parties like lost lists or Glenn, that have been either done a look or taken multiple looks and passed on information to ourselves to publishers and a variety of other Dow members.And at this point, the issue that has been discussed over the past week is that clearly the you know, the people, the members of the Dow don't feel like they understand what's going on or don't feel like they have enough clarity as to what is going on in the progress around what's going on. And so, like, again, just to restate from our understanding where things are at is the FBI is monitoring things, they have all the information and maybe they're waiting for the funds to move somewhere and then they'll make an action.Or maybe there's some I mean, to be to be frank, it's unclear what is the thing that we're waiting for to happen. But we we understand that there is nothing for us to do at this point when it comes to interacting with law enforcement. We've given them all the information that we have. We've had an interview with them.And so at this point, the like it to us, it seems like the substantive question is whether we want to as a DAO to pay someone to go do our own investigation and given the like the legal environment that we we live in, the the extent to the analysis that can really be done is going to be limited to on chain data and information.And when it comes to on trade down information, it's like, well, what can you hope to learn? It seems like the the information as well, where was the attack funded from? And after the funds were sent to tornado cash, where did the funds go? And are the funds still in tornado cash? The first question around where did the funds come from?We we seem to know the information to that. And it's unclear whether releasing that wallet address is going to be a big deal or not. From recovering the funds perspective, I would think not. So it's like that part of the information should probably public and disclosed. And then the question becomes, well, what can we hope to gain from a you know, a privately funded or a DAO funded investigation around where the funds currently are?And can we hope to learn anything about the movement of the funds from tornado cash And in so perhaps get more information for the FBI so that they can then go recover the funds? I think something like that implies that there's a lack of belief that the FBI is actively tracking it. And maybe there is something to be said for us just hedging and having our own, you know, team you know, tracking this stuff continuously.But other than trying to figure out where did the funds go, it's hard to imagine without law enforcement being a part of the investigation, meaning without the ability to subpoena private companies, it seems very hard to get much further than just doing marginal on chain analysis that then we can hope to maybe help you move the FBI along.But it's like, welcome. What what could we hope to find other than more exchange addresses? So that may be a worthwhile pursuit. I think in terms of like what is the fork in the road? It's like, well, we we already have gone through the road of trying to privately get this, you know, funding investigations privately, having separately like Blinn and Lost Lives, which are different companies than the ones we paid privately to file stuff with various Dow members.And it seems like there's a lack of sufficient transparency from the perspective of the Dow. So it's like the next you know, the more transparent route does come with the trade off, as you suggested, IPO, which is that now, you know, the the exploiter who's presumably in this discord is going to be able to know everything that's going on.And so it's like there's I mean, I guess there's an argument to be made that the, you know, just removing Publius from this and just having, you know, some designated down member managing this investigation and recovery process independent of us, that may be a good like middle step or another prong in the fork. But that really seems to be like the that's where we're at, if you will.So we already have, you know, some people working on this individually and or privately. And the Dow doesn't feel like they understand what's going on and to some extent reasonably so. So it's like, yeah, do we want to do a DAO based version of this? Do we not? I think that's where we're at. Got it. And it sounds like maybe a database version would solves two of those big problems.One, it would take us out of the crosshairs and it would also provide some neutrality to this and then to if we do have someone as a third party, you know, similar to how we already conduct audits of Beanstalk, right? We have third parties come in. They do the audit, they publish a report by everybody. And people can ask that person questions.You know, imagine if we did the audits in a similar way to what we've done here where, you know, you're working privately with them and then you report back and, you know, it becomes a whole administrative mess. So if you think I mean, if you think that's a good middle step, then, you know, that's good to hear. My question to the community would be, you know, unless there are any major objections or any big information holes about this specific, you know, person.Jason, it sounds like that's probably direction we should we should move in. Hey, I'm just going to chime in real quick. I'm going to echo what IPO just said. And I'm also happy to invite Jason back on here again to clarify any questions that the down may have. But as Publius has said, they're counsel represent them. They don't represent the now they don't represent this community.And if the community wants clarity on what happened last year, we're going to need to do of our own type of initiative. And just to be clear, because I saw it brought up in the Barnyard chat, you know, when Bopp, too, was advocated for when it was proposed. I mean, has finance. We're not aware of this potential Kraken link at the time.If anything, that has just further reinforced to us that this ongoing discussion about the recovery effort was worthwhile because we all learned of this. And so, you know, I would like to keep the momentum going, I think with what happened with Euler Finance and some other exploits recently, you know, there is a justification for moving forward. The cost is going to be a cost that I think we have to consider.But we've spent money on a lot of other things and quite frankly, you know, I think everybody deserves some clarity on on on where this one of the largest defi hacks of 2022, if not in history, where things stand with it. So my position is clear and, you know, happy to invite Jason on here again if necessary. So based on the facts present, it seems in my personal view that the highest chance we have of getting about the attacker is from the Kraken link.Because if I was personally the attacker and I heard that there was, you know, a thrill, I wouldn't move the funds out of here. Just leave them until, you know, people forgot about it. And so I'm sure that the attacker is probably listening and that that's the most logical thing. If I were them, was just to leave it there and hope that, you know, the source of the funds that went into TSI or not tracked into it, I think the best chance we have is trying to get from the FBI.Like who, what, who is the person or what account within Kraken sent those funds to that address and it didn't seem like Jason could get that information for us because he was like, well, if you want to know more about the status of the case, then you should all contact your local FBI offices. So it didn't seem like he was willing or really had the connections to get the status of the Kraken link from the FBI.But if there's another lawyer or someone else could be could hire that can get us that info, then I think that could be worth pursuing. I mean, you need law enforcement to do all that because even if we got the info, there's nothing we can do about it. We still need law enforcement involved. The only problem so far that I see is that law enforcement that we are engaging with, they're just not talking to us in any way.Right. That's really the core of what's happening here, because there could be an investigation. It could be very active. They could know way more than we can imagine. We just don't know shit. So to me, our understanding is that that's the way the law works around these types of and we've pushed counsel pretty hard to say, well, how can it be that we can't get any information?And it is one of those like this is just the way it is. So it does seem a little I mean, it's kind of ridiculous, but that is, you know, the privacy of the investigation is of the utmost priority. It seems even more than our status as a victims and our our right to know what's going on. But hopefully, like our counsel can shed more light on why that is or, you know, their understanding of why that is.And then people don't like that. We can figure out next steps from there. But it's like, yeah, this is kind of the end to be to be to be frank. Like part of the reason why we've been so disheartened in all of these conversations around recovery is because it seems like we really need law enforcement help. And law enforcement is a black box where we don't have any indication that they're interested or, you know, really spending time, energy or effort on this.But they're like, yeah, just, you know, we're doing our thing. So it's a very difficult environment to remain like optimistic about recovery of funds. And, you know, to that, I think the fact that you and some of these other projects have had success in recovering the funds, that's really the main reason to spend time on this. Now. And maybe it would make sense to try to get, you know, some of the some information from the Mueller team on how they threaded this needle.And yeah, it's a tricky spot. But I mean, I think the only thing that we would prefer to avoid, although in a down setting, like sometimes you can't, is just spending money again on the same thing to end up in the exact same spot so that everyone knows, yeah, this is where we are then we should just figure out better ways to communicate the information such that everyone feels good about, you know, where we are being where we are.So just spending money to spend money, probably not the best move collectively, but if that's what we you know, I think the goal would be to get clarity on what it is that Jason and his team actually can do, given all the information we currently have and where we understanding issue to be. And you know, if if they think that they can help at the margin, then obviously, you know, given all the recent recovery now it's probably as good a time as any to to make some moves here.So sorry for for droning on so much on this. But it is it's a very tricky conversation here because we don't really know what is normal. And it is weird to see all these other projects, recovering funds and feeling like there's no hope on this. So yeah, it's definitely difficult, difficult conversation. I agree we should engage with your and find out just their story because maybe, maybe we just got a bad FBI office that's just like a little too stickler for rules.And you did something different. Maybe they didn't go to the FBI. Maybe they have to do something else. Or maybe maybe they got more updates. Or it would be good to know how they thread the needle as you. Yes, I think we should attempt that before spending more money. Got it. And I mean, it sounds like I think it might make sense now that we're more focused on this, to have Jason come back and answer some of these specific questions about, you know, what his contacts at the FBI are capable of doing.I mean, unless he's already answered these and your on repeat them. But I think it might make sense for him to come back and just do a quick Q&A, just so we fully understand, you know, his capabilities, What we got out of this, I think by and large, at least from what's been available publicly on Twitter and through threads and actual statements that some of these protocols have made, it sounds like they engaged multiple organizations.It wasn't just them calling the FBI over and over again. And, you know, two, it sounds like there were some third party owners to some of these things which allow people to get information, you know, versus depending on it through someone or wondering what people are up to. So that's the last thing I'll say on that. But I think I think unless Jason can come again, maybe we can have them come speak at some point soon so people can ask questions and get a good idea of what we'd be getting from.Sure. Yeah. I'm happy to invite them item on again. I believe he'll be out on vacation next week, but probably the week after. Could arrange that. Yeah, I think that'll be the call where our counsel can attend. So we could do like a recovery focused our call, have the counsel talk, then have Jason listen, and then we can kind of all figure out next steps together.That sounds good to me. And we chat to Mueller before then, just so we have, like, their context. How do we approach that? Does anyone here have any contact at all, or do we just go to Discord in the hallway? I'll try to reach out to them. I've already been kind of reaching out to various people, so they just released their, you know, their Twitter thread a few days ago on what exactly they did to get this recovery executed.So they listed all sorts of people that helped them in that effort. So I'm going to try to reach out to them and various people that help them and see where we can maybe come up with. You know, the Twitter thread isn't very helpful in terms of details. We would probably want to talk to them directly. All right.Well, anyone should feel free to interrupt me if they have anything else they want to discuss, but thank that the most recently mentioned waiting for the Dominion a couple of weeks from now where our producers council and and Jason can kind of present and answer questions sounds like reasonable next steps on this and I'll go ahead and ask do you want to just go ahead and ask him?And I reached out to him. It's okay for sure. Thank you, sir. And just to be clear, so we're all on the same page. We're talking about April 20th, Thursday, April 20th is when your counsel will be, as will also be able to be on that call? I believe so. Okay. So thank you guys. Awesome. Thanks, everyone, for coming and thanks for everyone who unmuted and spoke out.And this is great. This is what it's all about and making the undisclosed.