okay I think we can get started um GM everyone and as a reminder this meeting is for the Dao so you know at any point feel free to unmute yourself and join the conversation or start one of yourself um let's start maybe with a quick round of updates from the contributors and we can start with being Sprout Mr manifold couldn't be with us uh today he's he's on a flight so he sent he sent me their updates and I'm going to to read it so key updates from bean sprout uh the code being spot proposal the bsp passed and that has been funded uh so now the next steps would be for you know the team to find the developers in order for them to you know Implement implement the group or habitat uh second update is that roots are now live on arbitrum and then lastly the root team is working on hopefully to have um their betting or their own betting exchange contracts their own betting exchange contracts audited in the next in the next few months okay I think one someone here is unmuted or maybe that's that's done all right that's it from from being Sprout we can move to minstock Farms guy how are you doing I'm not doing well GM everyone um okay my update this week somewhat brief not for uh any lack of things to do but mostly working on a lot of the same stuff I talked about last week uh which is to say um a lot of work happening on the Seraph bib from a lot of different parties excited to see that come together over the next few days and hopefully we'll have something to to share with the community uh if not tomorrow then sometime sometime next week um also I've been exploring setting up a code Arena audits for upcoming bips hopefully we can get that set up uh for the first meaningful uh bit that has meaningful amounts of new code sometime in January um for those who aren't familiar with code arena is a an audit competition so the idea is they can start and finish an audit and you know call it like three to seven days because they have anywhere from 50 to 100 white hats looking at the code at the same time and and those competitions have have guaranteed payouts so some open questions as to whether we can fund those with beans uh who's going to fund them things like that but uh spending some time working on that um there's a few other things in Flight I know alistairs have been working on the q1 budget bip things like that but I'll leave it up leave it at that thank you guy and and yes you did mention that there's the new the new budget dip that's that's in works so the doubt can expect it sometime soon I'm assuming but I guess when do you think that uh bip would go live for voting uh not sure about the when the bip would go live but I think we can reasonably share the draft uh early next week okay all right um and Brian I see that you're with us when we were giving the bean spot updates one of the things that we mentioned is that the the cool uh proposal passed and now we're the next steps of you know continuing to build it uh now that the funding is available brilliant can you maybe give us a minute or two on what you're thinking uh on the for on the next steps for the coupe foreign you can share maybe the update uh um like on on a chat and I can I can read it as well okay let's move to development style Chad how's it going good mod um a lot of stuff in flights uh I'll keep my update pretty brief as well since not too too much has changed since last week so finished the first version of some detailed Nat spec documentation for uh The Silo module on the contracts which you can see on the Beanstalk repo if you go take a look we've shared this with halborn and spent some time reviewing reviewing with them as a reminder the idea there is basically to level up our our solidity documentation such that Auditors and and white hats can can really dig into the code more efficiently as they perform their work so this is a sort of a security upgrade that we're that we're considering implementing across the board um also working with with Breen on merging some of the related changes uh from that process into a couple of the active active branches that are going on right now on the contract side notably we've done this for uh for zero withdrawal which is in progress as well as some of the sunrise updates which halborn halborn audit is is sort of in the final stages for those outside of this on the UI front um cool bean and bean Samba have continued to make progress on the market UI the next Milestone we're looking at which is pending is releasing the sort of new layout for the Pod Market which has been designed by sweet red beans without uh at this time without the sort of advanced charting capabilities that we've been exploring so this will be you know sort of updating the structure and hopefully being clear about you know different things like where to find a list of my orders and we're introducing a new order book component and all those sorts of things so the development work is uh sort of we're deep in the process on that front there's a couple more things to clean up that um but hopefully should be able to have that that out in the next next couple of days so stay tuned we've got some more conversations going on about that today I think next up in the UI uh you know we're looking at a number of of upgrades but uh there's been some design work done on upgrading the token selectors to basically make it easier to tell when you're using your farm in circulating balances so I know there's been some confusion in Discord in the past about those things and hopefully we can get a lot of that cleared up in addition we're working on a workflow for claiming and doing various actions on the site so for example if you have car Festival pods and you want to go deposit in the silo you can do the Harvest and the deposit in in one transaction so designs there are sort of in the later stages and we'll begin development on that pretty soon that's all I've got thank you Chad sweet red beans how are you sir yeah I'm doing well I'm doing well thanks for asking um you know I will keep it brief given that Silo chat actually covered you know some of the work that we were doing because it's sort of overlaps with with what they're doing but uh you know on our end mostly sort of this week focused on some of the Pod Marketplace V2 ux routing out some of the edges uh more specifically working on uh the order book component and the zooming interactions that to expect uh and then with the advanced charting uh also sort of developing what the the zooming pattern will look like on on the chart as a whole so those are sort of the two things uh with regards to chart that that we're focused on this week and then uh in addition hoping to sort of deliver a final spec to the engineering team on this uh at this new UI selector to make it easier to sort of delineate between your farm and circulating balance and also the claimant Dux flow um and so you know hopefully we can get that shipped in the next in the next week or two and something to look forward to there but uh otherwise um I think that's it from from on the design side of things thank you sweet red former farmer Dan or things at your end hey mod doing well um you know GM Farmers hope everybody's doing well um yeah uh relatively short update out of Marketing as well um new Beethoven song came out this week um there's gonna be a new bi-weekly being from iReal at the end of the week as well as a new blog that's pretty good on Bank runs that's um being finalized as well from from iReal um on my ends um you know similar to the audio clip put out last week I'm working on something as well that's kind of highlighting um you know the the benefits of positive carry and businesses that are looking to build on top of beanstock um there's a really good discussion from a podcast that I want to highlight um you know we started doing merch giveaways for class and stuff like that so be sure to um you know make sure you're attending amas um and yeah working on an explainer thread as well um similar to some things in the past um another thing that I wanted to highlight um you know I feel like um a big part of my role is you know highlighting these high quality discussions and ideas that are happening around the farm you know kind of simplifying things for those who might be newer to the project and sort of just um you know like highlighting these things are happening around the farm but you know another big part of marketing is also you know expanding reach um you know reaching new people and things like that um so that's something that I definitely want to get more into you know so if anybody has any ideas for you know marketing PR reach expansion um or you know like any new podcasts that it might be beneficial for being to be featured on you know definitely looking for ideas so you know please feel free to reach out to me as well um but yeah that's pretty much what I have going on right now thank you foreign and I would highlight that um with any help let's say or any any region in that sense um Farm Farmers or folks can make use of the community Grant and send uh as one or uh was one who made use of that so I would encourage you know all others to to do the same thank you okay I think um we are at the end of the Beanstalk Farms updates I'll I'll give it a minute think did you want to maybe talk about the the Bob that's currently live hey mod yeah do you hear me all right I hear you great um good morning good afternoon good evening everyone um yeah the Bop 2 is up um just over two days left for voting um we're at about 16 and a half million stock voting for it so far or 62 percent um of the way towards Quorum so we need about 10 million more stock before Saturday at 3 P.M Eastern so if you haven't had a chance to look at the proposal and um give it some consideration would be very grateful for that and I just want to thank everybody that has um you know raise visibility about it um via Twitter and other channels and just to follow up on a farmer dance comments the the hats Finance team if this proposal does pass they actually reached out to me that they'd be happy to do a Twitter spaces with Beanstalk um and so you know next week before the holidays something kind of celebratory assuming the proposal moves forward so just opportunity to kind of chat about the proposal and um you know some you know just get raise visibility about Beanstalk on Twitter and social media channels so we'll we'll revisit that after Saturday we'll see what Falcon is but you know um other than that uh just thank thank you everybody again for for this uh decentralized governance is a a very interesting Beast that we are all learning to navigate and um this was a good learning experience thank you thank and thank you you want to maybe in a minute just summarize what is the Bob that's got into life so maybe those who are with us and they don't you know they have an editor they don't know what the proposal is about sure yeah the tldr um essentially on this is you know it's been over half a year since the exploit and you know [Music] um long story short um the the original um you know motivation behind this proposal was um a few months ago when mango markets was able to achieve a resolution to their exploit which was over a hundred million dollar exploit and The exploiter Returned about 40 percent of it back or rather 60 percent of it back to their Dow and kept 40 for himself and his team his team so that was the um you know the origin of this and so I essentially just wanted to give this a shot and so that's what me and has Finance uh did we grouped together and essentially this proposal suggesting that Beanstalk raised the Bounty offer to the exporter to 40 percent and uh Bean stocks Dow would um obtain sixty percent minus a small fee or rather a small reward to the various parties that helped uh you know move this proposal forward and to Beanstalk Farms assuming a recovery is achieved so nobody would receive anything um unless the recovery is achieved there's no beans being minted with this proposal uh nobody's going to take anything up front for this this is purely an Endeavor that if recovery is achieved that's our hope and you know that's the that's the goal here so it's a shot in the dark but we felt it's worth it so again thank you everybody for considering it thank you sank the Bob is live on Snapchat is also linked on the Beanstalk UI and as I think I said earlier there are two days left for this vote okay um I'll I'll stop here maybe for a minute just see if other folks have something that they wanna you know they can think of they want to discuss otherwise we can close it maybe with some a few a few thoughts from properties okay ya asks what's your goal to attract new capital and how are you doing it and and this is sent to or maybe the question is to the marketing team um I think maybe the marketing team can answer or give an opinion on that but maybe this question can also be directed to everyone so this is this is a question that is uh in general to all um I can give maybe maybe a thought or or an idea on on that generally speaking I don't think the the approach that we want to take is you know is to share in the sense that he come by you know our product um the approach that we want to take is explain what it is that we're doing and you know what is this thing you know that we're building and what is it that's solving uh and then it's up to everyone to you know to participate and make their decision in that so I understand of course that the songs may not help in explaining what the even though it you know it may do that to an extent uh but that is not the um the purpose let's say of the of the songs this is one thing that is done or a side thing and a small part of what marketing does the main focus uh when when we're thinking of you know what what material and things to bring out is again to explain what is you know what is Beanstalk why are we building beam stock and how does bean stock work um it's none of such as that you know you're gonna get this amazing apis or which has you know just trust us do this or come come and buy this thing and you know maybe it will it will do this or not that is from the marketing end but you know let's have this as an open conversation and hear others you know what what others think as well and farmer then feel free as well to you know to to maybe chime in order to add or say what you're thinking as well yeah yeah um you know totally agree with you as far as you know like our goal isn't to try and um like Shield a project or get people to you know buy or or LP or anything like that um but yeah just to be able to highlight the things that are going on and I think you know um yeah like sometimes like uh like the the points kind of missed in the sense that you know I think we need to do a good job of highlighting all the things that are happening in the direction that we're moving in you know in the sense that Beanstalk is working towards becoming a place where businesses can build on top of it and that's something that you know the fit and the use cases from being able to build a business that has this positive carry is something that will ultimately like you know lead to more use and things like that and it's just kind of about highlighting those things um and you know as far as the songs and stuff go I I you know I almost wouldn't even consider that to be a part of marketing at all it's it's basically a show of community and like the fact that we have a strong community and people that want to be engaged with the project and even if they don't have this level of you know expertise in development or in understanding you know the financial principles they still believe in the project want to be engaged with it and you know are you know doing their part to contribute sort of so in my opinion it's a show of community and you know obviously as you look across the space here projects that have a strong Community that's definitely an important aspect to have thank you farmer then and Anya continues um maybe I'm going to read their comments so they're saying that you know we're not asking about Shilling uh the product uh but there is you know zero interest right now um and with no new capital this cannot move forward now I'm sharing my my you know personal opinion so I don't speak on behalf of you know other uh let's say contributors or other Farmers uh I I think I disagree um as long as being is there and it continues uh for you know long periods this is this is what matters um if we don't have let's say you know a certain interest or activity uh for a specific period of time that does not you know um uh mean you know anything an overall picture uh in janitor I think that we are in a good position or we're on a good spot given everything else of course not too worried about you know that there are you know you know certain activities and I don't think that you know we we may want to change our direction or change or let's say like Panic I'm just given how things are this is not the first time let's say as well that being stuck as a protocol goes through you know a period like this and you know it's not even the second time so I think I think once again all right and this is me speaking is that I think we we are in a good spot would just would ask a question some of some of yad's comments are about the narrative in a bear Market people will come and that hasn't happened now what's the narrative and sorry for the noise where I am at the moment but uh don't to some extent I I'm I think the concept that there needs to be a narrative or that their previous narrative hasn't worked this is this is the way off base narratives narratives are by definition not the substance and Beanstalk is not is not at a point to to your earlier Point farmer Dan where businesses can build on top of Beanstalk and so in short right now and and I mean I also think it's a little disingenuous Beanstalk was exploited eight months ago and therefore all of the positive feedback loop economics that were in place at the time went back to zero and in fact there's a negative feedback loop associated with all the previous debt so the concept that the system's just going to be up and running at full speed immediately and therefore some of the economic species around why people will ultimately want beans during bull markets and bear markets uh this it's it's a little bit of a disingenuous criticism and and furthermore I think if we're trying to Zone in on what the narrative actually was or at least what we understood one of the main benefits of holding beans during a bear Market is is not necessarily that there's competitive yields in beans per se uh although uh this is you also have to factor in the macroeconomic conditions and the fact that the treasury yields are way up so now there's also a question of the risk of being stocks competing with the risk-free yield and bean stock is a way higher risk asset or beans are way higher risk asset than treasuries but beyond that beyond that that point that the the macroeconomic conditions have changed significantly at the micro level the real incentive that exists during a bear Market whether it's a beanstalk bear Market or a larger bear Market is not the bean senior age and there's no rush ever From beanstalk's perspective to get to a point where there are more beans minted in fact that's the main way that Beanstalk debt is structured there's never a a due date instead there are conditions under which the debt is paid back that's one of the fundamental things about Beanstalk that make it different from other economic systems the core's incentive around being exposure during a bear Market is stock really that there's some accrual of stock and the grown stock system or the stock system creates incentives when there is net outflows from Beanstalk whether it's a bank run or just a bear market for people to retain or even acquire being exposed so to some extent maybe there's misunderstanding or there's miscommunication uh or maybe both as to what is a reasonable way to expect Beanstalk to perform in any given market conditions but the the The Narrative that that yah seems to be proposing that things are are going in the wrong direction and this is unsustainable I think factually is incorrect and in particular if you look at the history of Beanstalk there have been other periods of time where the beams minted to pay for things uh by the Dow have been much larger and the deficit in the bean price from its Peg has been larger uh both in terms of price and Delta B so just feel like in general it's either a disingenuous take or or at best it's a miseducated take and it's it's even just the the premise that the narratives are the thing to be optimizing around is wrong the substance isn't there yet Beanstalk isn't there yet uh and it is very much a catch-22 but the the idea that the people that are paid by the Dow to build things and to work on things substantively that they're in charge of the narratives and again I think with the potential exception of the marketing team which is more of a reasonable question to ask and prior to your question even both mod and farmer Dan had been discussing that already so again that's why I think there's a question as to how genuine is the question here and not to call your your genuity into question yet but instead would challenge you to just if if if you have real questions to ask the actual question as opposed to dancing around the issues here so there are real issues to discuss uh but the idea that the narrative is the the issue I don't think that's it and it's it you know understand you said you're on a plane feel like these conversations are much better had voice to voice but to some extent we all need to do a better job of engaging with what are the really substantive issues and comments uh that that are not explicit uh really really contract or detract from the conversation that's supposed to add to it thank you Publius um one of uh maybe the things that they said is eight months or six years in crypto and we as as we like we may all agree um you know the time let's say in crypto moves a lot faster um a lot has happened in the past eight months um not only do you have a protocol that you know revived and is back on it is almost completely you know it's the same protocol but it's a new protocol UI code code wise Etc they also asked you know what is being built on top of uh Beanstalk so root has is built and continues uh to build on on top of Beanstalk um um the coupe which uh bring um is working on is is something as such as well um what projects are reaching out so Paradox is one of the uh protocols or projects that game and utilize or use the beans these things may seem small at the current uh you know right now um the activity on it or the volume on it may may look or seem small but these are Big steps um it is it is you know let's say like a new era a new a new direction or a new you know now we have things or ways that beams are used that weren't used before and we expect these things you know or you know we work towards these things uh you know them as well themselves to grow and then to have also more more of them if that makes sense um lastly um when it comes to marketing we all we one thing that we can all like you know work on is to increase exposure so uh we may not uh want to you know we may not think on how can we convince someone as we said this approach that we don't want which is to convince someone to you know to participate but what can we do to increase the exposure so more people are aware of what you know of what being sockets and and the songs is one of these things so when you know when when you do these things and you do you know the communities and sort of things that's meant to you know keep up the engagement keep people you know high on it and and they talk on these things or they share these things and and that that's expected to increase exposure um some of these ideas or thoughts may come you know from community members may come from others so let's say some open invitation to everyone if you can think of something that you can think is interesting then let's do it maybe we can throw you know the poker tournament is was meant to or is one of these things maybe we can throw something or do something that hey you know a lot of people would be interested in and then that also increases you know a means of exposure me I I feel compelled to comment on the eight months is six years in crypto time uh on the one hand it's totally true because things are moving fast this is a new space and things are changing in real time and constantly but on the other hand things are actually not moving and while the world is exploding around us uh in many ways the reality is that the the tech on ethereum hasn't gotten that much better over the past five years so in short the idea that the only thing Beanstalk needs is a good narrative and it'll be ready forever for for you know for for whatever you want to think the the future of Beanstalk is that's wrong and as we understand things Defy is not ready for Beanstalk so even if we assume that the gauge system is implemented and and Beanstalk effective is getting really refined uh we we don't think that the the amms the borrowing and lending protocols really anything that currently exists in the evm is ready for real economic activity and so to some extent the idea that it even is good for being stuck to have a bunch of narratives where now there's a lot of dollars significant dollars flowing into the the ecosystem at the moment that that would be good for Beanstalk unclear given that by definition if there's no real economic activity happening in the ecosystem it's all speculative demand and to some extent there's nothing wrong with speculative demand uh someone someone recently brought up that uh inorganic demand has perhaps been confused with speculative demand and would would agree with that uh idea so maybe to to buy for Kate in this case uh there's nothing wrong with demand for beans that the nature of the demand is speculation on the future demand for beans per se but when it comes to the overall health of the beans stock ecosystem or Beanstalk itself the ratio of demand for beans that is uh utility-based uh versus speculative uh that's probably uh in the long run going to be very important and while there's nothing to say that Beanstalk can't first grow from speculative demand and then shift to more utility-based demand uh from our perspective any any narrative based demand is by definition speculative and what we're talking about right now the the Delta B is 400 and something thousand beans which is not insignificant the price is at 96 cents and change so it's not like beans are at it's at their Peg but by the same token it's not like the system is is currently collapsing in fact there's an argument to be made that any other I'll go stable model that has previously been tested in the wild has not really spent any time at 98 cents 97 cents 96 cents the way the Beanstalk has and this these periods of time are proofs of the economic model in and of themselves a perfect Peg is not always uh the thing that Beanstalk tries to create instead it's a low volatility asset that over time oscillates above and below its pay so as the the economic Peg maintenance as the peg maintenance model is refined further I feel like the the magnitude and duration of the oscillations can be further tweaked but in the grand scheme of things it's it's really important that the the the real demand for beans comes from util demand to use the beans and it was really cool to see the Paradox pools launch and to see people buying beans to Mint roots or just buying roots to bet with and that was perhaps the first real utility of beans at all and that's very exciting very exciting uh but but again it's not that's not the the tech itself isn't there yet where the betting experience can really rival Vegas and it's not so far away it's not we on this end at least feel like the that goal is really in sight and it's a question of uh months not years at this point and to be frank I feel like most of the the progress towards that goal is going to come out of the Beanstalk ecosystem and it's very exciting to see but the the the perspective that there's a narrative issue and that narratives are the things that drive uh liquidity which is true we as a collective at least in our opinion and publius's opinion we should be pushing back against that we are Beanstalk is not something that is supposed to come and go with the tide and with the narrative in fact Beanstalk is hopefully counter-cyclical and anti-reflexive and I guess that's that was the original point about the narrative about thriving in a bear Market that in theory something like this should be to some extent counter cyclical again that has to be uh weight in the context of the macro environment as well as the crypto environment and and the Beanstalk micro situation which is heavily impacted by the the exploit but the point is this is not at least at least from from where we see things this is not a time to be to be really trying to push new narratives around Beanstalk the narratives which again it's there's nothing wrong with narratives per se but I think there is something wrong with Beanstalk Farms or people that are paid by the Dow being responsible for the narratives uh I think those are two different things the narratives will write themselves when the tech is ready and the tech is is getting it there's a ton of development happening at this point on and around Beanstalk uh but but it's not it's not already yet and therefore uh any any narratives whether they're organic or inorganic narratives uh they're they're they're they're they're not going to be able to create utility based demand for beings and therefore unclear what the real value is at this point other than maybe a slightly tighter Peg and push back against the need for a super tight Peg at this point as well um I'd like to share some thoughts I mean I I think it's it's kind of good to just go back at least for me they you know the really compelling points about being um to begin with where you know this realization that well there is a dollar shortage in the world um people around the world um entrepreneurs around the world I've been one in Pakistan they have a hard time accessing dollars in fact there was this really interesting tweet from Amin suleimani yesterday that you know usdt on Tron is the most used stable coin in Iran and you know it made him sort of question a lot of things he's he's doing the reason I'm bringing this up is that like you know if you I think one historical parallel that's like very relevant for everything that Bean is doing is the is the rise of the euro dollar market which is this offshore dollar market that's largely which is basically US Dollars held by non-us Dollar Banks and against those uh dollars there's this very large credit system that is now in the tens of trillions which is basically currently used by the rest of the world as a as a as a funding and financing mechanism and you know this um these this this on chain dollar that is credit based that's that's the system that it you know can potentially compete with so just wanted to chime in and say that like you know the the original sort of or at least the the the nap I ever call it narrative but the problem statement I remember about this project is that there's a there's a shortage of Tolerance on chain we want to find an elegant solution to bring a lot of dollars on team and uh at least from my perspective I think that that solution continues to continues to improve and that's the part I'd like to see uh continuous work being done on which I think is being done also is my two cents thank you asking quasimat asks and to your point actually there's no demand for dollars on chain right now why because all the demand for dollars on chain was speculative demand which comes and goes with the time so hopefully whenever there's a lot of demand for beans it will be for real economic uh activity which is not nearly as cyclical as uh the comings and goings of the crypto spot markets yeah I totally agree with that and and I think I mean you know there's the there's another perspective too right like uh on on beam and the need for a decentralized stable coin see like and this is like I think getting to the this kind of this this is a more Messier issue which is that like nation states like Pakistan are very unlikely to agree to you know a free flow of capital uh even though that's pretty good for uh you know people in places like those countries but you know there's there's always sort of going to be a challenge and so you know it it's unlikely at least my bet is which is I continue which is why I continue to remain very closely involved with this project it's unlikely that a centralized custodian will like satisfy the world's thirst for dollars and so you know it's uh I I guess the I guess my I've not been very coherent in my view but it's like the thirst for dollars has has not gone away in the world if anything it's gotten worse or like it's only if anything gets grown uh this uh new on-chain weird world it's it's it's it's pretty Niche you know not a lot of people know about it or how to get on it and but like yeah you know it's uh the the the goal that like this project is striving towards it's uh it's it's a big one and it's a it's an audacious one and I think like uh you know the the better that this project gets at it like you know just floating in and around Pig I mean I think it's really it's just a it's a matter of tying before uh for more people start realizing it but anyway um it's a good to hear all of you guys speaking and And discussing foreign in order for any of that demand for Euro dollars to translate to demand for beams except for the speculative demand for Euro dollars that we already see on approach uh during bull markets there is going to need to be an ability for businesses building on chain on a on a deep by Tech stack to compete with in terms of the ux their their experience and the ux is that they can provide for customers to compete with current centralized Tech staff and the the whole of defy just isn't there yet unfortunately so then the question becomes is it is it better to prioritize speculative demand or just wait until assuming that the development is happening which at least from our perspective it's happening uh then the question is is there a value in prioritizing speculative demand in advance of the system really being ready and at least on this end vote strongly no I would strongly know as well I'll give it a few seconds maybe see if others have thoughts on this topic before we move to the next one and and female maybe while you were at it I I see you've shared a few things about um about what you guys are working on or what the irrigation team is working on feel free to you know if you wanna maybe share a little bit I see that you've already shared some if you want to share some of the doubt feel free to do so and that's in the barnier chat if fcml it doesn't wanna um or is it next to the mic the details but what you should what they shared is in the barnyard chat okay question from quasimat speaking of development being done is there any more info on Wells the problem with soil is how it works so the problem that Wells is trying to solve is that currently when you're providing liquidity to an amm it is almost by definition or or perhaps by definition a money losing proposition because once your order is out there because uh any sort of amm is effectively a fixed order occur once the order is on chain the only way for you to update the order is to submit another transaction on chain and the problem is that there's effectively a competition to get orders updated first before the orders can be traded and this race condition is an Mev problem whereby the miners get to decide The Ordering of the transactions and get to decide whether the the liquidity provider gets to update their order and save the money or whether some Trader gets to trade against it and collect some Arbitrage and in both cases uh the value is in practice lost by the liquidity provider because the miner actually gets to extract the value so what this what this means is that providing liquidity locked in that your order is going to receive the worst quality flow trading flow against it under current AMF and it doesn't really matter whether you're providing on the curve or uniswap V2 or V3 potentially V3 offers some minor upgrades to this because you can Define your the interval over what you're buying and selling very closely such that your your it really is just a a limit order that you assume you can't really update if if certain conditions change and so I guess it's slightly better but the concept is when you compare that with a centralized exchange trading experience there's no cost whatsoever to updating orders and furthermore you expect that the ordering of the updating of the orders is honored by the exchange meaning that and perhaps this isn't essentially the way that it that it works in in a lot of cases unfortunately but there's some aspect of ux expect the exchange that you're using to honor your transactions or if you're canceling a transaction or updating an order to honor that whereas on chain there is no priority in ordering and you actually have to pay for the cancellation or the priority of the cancellation which results in you losing all of the value that you could save from updating the order so again currently the the structure of amms means that you're you're buying and selling at the at times you don't want to be buying and selling because the market has moved against you the it's it's very unlikely given the structure of amms where they're not particularly deep uh in most cases it's unlikely that there's going to be competitive depth per se when you combine this with the fact that providing liquidity is non-competitive so it creates a bad experience for providing liquidity which then in turn creates a bad experience for trading and no one's actually happy so uh you combine that with the fact that why why is currently providing liquidity incentivized with a hefty trading fee which actually creates lots of inefficiencies in the market so uh that all around this is not really a healthy or sustainable system now in short I mean maybe to expand the problem statement a little bit further it's not just that the orders themselves need to be updated constantly it's that the the orders are really Limited in their definition so if you're providing liquidity on curve or uniswap uh V2 or V3 the curves over which are providing liquidity are highly limited and so in practice it while uniswap V3 does allow you to create some sort of custom curve over which you're providing liquidity it's it's it's not generally the concept is that at the aggregate level you're not offering the same user experience because you're locking people into one specific curve so every current amm defines an explicit curve and everyone is locked into trading on that curve and or providing liquidity on the record and if you expand this problem not just to dexes where things trade but amms in general were lending and borrowing happens for example uh this this creates a really poor experience for borrowing and lending uh because the the the the interest rates over which you have to borrow and lend are explicitly defined by The Lending pools themselves or the protocols themselves and not the lenders so both in terms of trading and borrowing and lending there's very little customizability or optionality that currently exists in the ability to create orders and then you have to actually constantly update your positions if they can be updated at all like in uniswap V3 in order to uh maintain the positioning that you actually want in the order book but you can't actually perform the updates in an economic fashion because you have you have this problem uh around the the execution on channel and so in short if you consider I mean maybe the last problem that is being solved here is that all of these from the last major problem that Wells are trying to solve is that the liquidity in the the amms that currently exist are not usually usable or queryable by other protocols and so just as a simple example one thing that Beanstalk has faced many times is that understanding or acquiring the Delta B the time weighted average Delta B in the bean 3 curve pool or the being equal is not actually so trivial because of the the way that the amms are architected so even in terms of just composability and other protocols using these pools on chain the pools are not architected in a way where even the deployers of the pool right these are Beanstalk Community deployed or Beanstalk deployed or Publius deployed pools in every instance still the pools cannot be implemented in such a way where it's easy to interact with Beanstalk per set so you've got all of these different problems which again go back to the you know this is maybe one of the core issues that make it such that trading in on deep fight really doesn't rival centralized Finance experiences uh the the goal of Wells is to create a an order to trade certain assets that is effectively arbitrary in nature and what that can mean even though originally the the the order types that are implemented will probably be pretty basic the idea is if the architecture is sufficiently composable every time a new order type uh or new strategy is added on chain people can copy and and mirror and add into or compose strategies together to create really sophisticated orders over time the basic idea is that you can you can for example put in beams into a into a well and give a price or a pricing curve over which to buy if using those beans and you can also give a pricing curve over which to buy usdc using those beams and you can also give a pricing curve over which to buy usdt or roots or and or any other token effectively or asset on chain using those beams and assuming that someone actually trades against the well where now you have the well has usdc in it instead of beans uh the well can be predefined such that now the well can sell usdc into any of those other assets again according to certain predefined curves now the the other layer of abstraction here that's really important is that uh these curves or these orders can take in some series of inputs or parameters that can be again arbitrary so it can be any on-chain data or some Oracle that's submitting off-chain data that the order is in practice updating itself in real time but doesn't actually require a transaction to upgrade or update because the the order is itself a function of certain data and the data being updated is what changes the order and so in practice this allows effectively for trading strategies or a whole strategy uh a sophisticated liquidity providing strategy to be encoded in a single well and for that to ultimately be used somewhat arbitrarily now additionally to that every well that is deployed can be deployed with an arbitrary set of pumps which encode or in fact uh store on chain according to the specifications of the pumps the the data that the pumps save on chain in order for whatever needs to be used by the by other protocols on chain such that you can effectively when you deploy the liquidity pool uh deploy it with when you deploy the well you can deploy it with the appropriate pump such that the wells liquidity can interoperate with the protocols that you know need certain pump functionality so what this what what well should do uh and it it's it's unclear when the full functionality for Wells will be available but again it's it's it the the it's in sight it's not it's not years away it's months away uh the idea is that when people provide liquidity into Wells it is no longer a money losing proposition for the liquidity provider and the liquidity that is being provided can actually be completely composed or reused on chain touch that uh you now have interoperability with the with the liquidity itself so sorry for the long explanation but that's that's in theory how it should work oh sorry that was muted agent Bean asks what is the current bottleneck for developing Wells probably at this point there are no no known bottlenecks it's more a question of just things take time particularly if we're trying to do them the right way where the work is done once and then can just be used going forward uh it it things take a little bit more time okay um we're all uh almost on top of the hour um let's with a few minutes left let's let's see if others have anything that they wanna maybe you know discuss and we can we can go over the hour if needed Agent B in photos up and asks does that mean that we figured out the Oracle issue for wealth well figured out is probably not the right way to say it whereas the architecture is is figured out to a point where each different input like pumping momentation can be done totally separately or modularly so there is some work that still needs to get done or research to be done on the perfect parameters for the the the pumps for the b e pool let's call it but it's at this point okay I see quasimatus typing so quasimat maybe asks or wants to clarify and and they say that this is a simplification but is it fair to say that Wells allow lpers to define a complex and dynamic set of orders for their liquidity yeah it's not wrong n-dimensional polynomial dynamic curve or something it's a part the Pod Marketplace V2 on steroids you could you could say something like that okay I think we are at the end maybe all the questions thank you all for joining us in today's meeting and we'll see you we'll see you next week have a good day