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[Music] foreign [Music] jobs for anywhere people right finally live after a couple of technical hiccups goodness how are you doing sir it's always uh great to meet new Founders that are in the space we've been following you guys for for a long time now but uh one of the first time we've chatted so it's great to have you on how are you doing doing quite well thank you very much for having us excited to to chat today yeah I very welcome very welcome um so what we'll do I suppose is for people who haven't heard of you guys one where have you been what I'd like to do is just try and get into as much or as little detail as as physically possible on let's start off with your kind of origin story and how how you kind of found your way into the space and was there any kind of traditional path if there is even is a traditional buffing of the space that kind of LED you to where you are now sure so we Publius uh are there's technically three of us but we operate as effectively a collective uh the three of us met at the University of Chicago uh back in college and we're off doing our own independent things out in the world and serendipitously ended up all deciding to work on uh what we thought would be a side project at the time uh ESD empty set dollar uh had been blowing up and uh for a variety of different reasons which uh we're happy to talk about we thought that the thing that ESD was trying to solve of creating a non-collateralized stable coin was a very compelling problem to be solving and thought that ESD was really neat but at the same time recognized that there were some very obvious problems with their model or its model and decided to sort of work on a an improvement and that ultimately became Beanstalk uh which we Publius are the creators or founders of and Beanstalk uh at this point is much larger than us uh there's probably 50 people or so working in or on or around Beanstalk and and its ecosystem but the the hope of Beanstalk is to be the basis for the decentralized economy and there's a lot of different pieces of the puzzle that are ultimately going to be necessary in order to facilitate the transition uh of real economic activity onto trustless Primitives uh Beanstalk is just one of those pieces and it is the issuer of of the money piece of the puzzle if you will but at this point uh our work and the work happening in the Beanstalk ecosystem extends far beyond just the the money side of it which again is what Beanstalk is is really handling or trying to handle and extends to uh adex uh borrowing and lending protocol uh betting protocol there's a variety of different stuff happening that hopefully will ultimately facilitate a a decentralized trustless economy and that's that's what we're doing here so happy to talk more about uh how we got into the space what we're currently doing but we'll we'll defer to you on where to take us sir yeah great answer great answer so with you guys um or maybe maybe even just yourself have you always been kind of that entrepreneurial minded or always thought that if you're going to do something it's kind of go big or go home is is that something that's kind of the president for you it's a very interesting question uh would definitely describe myself as an entrepreneur uh had another business that I started at Co in college and dropped out of college to work on at one point and and very interested in creating things uh in terms of go big or go home I think that's probably also a fair characterization of our our mindset on this which is to say that these are very big problems that we are attempting to participate in the solution of and given that trustlessness is a least common denominator problem where if you have the requirement to trust someone or something at any point in the process it really takes away from the the the utility that would be created or the the trustlessness is entirely removed if there's any point of trust in the cycle uh to some extent you have to have the mindset of go big or go home because either this is all gonna work or none of it's gonna work and some of the stuff may not work but the concept is it's it is a an All or Nothing type of uh environment that we currently exist in even if particular implementations or particular instances are not the thing uh at the end of the day there is going to be God willing a thing and that thing is very big and so uh yeah the go big or go home mindset probably uh is a fair way to characterize what's going on here at the moment yeah completely agree completely resonate with that um so did you guys come to try and Tackle this problem and it might be The Waiting of this might be different between people who are involved but from kind of your perspective is was this heavily weighted in uh uh philosophical argument was it more economical or was it there's a real big problem here and I really want to be one of these guys that goes to attack it is there like equal waiting across those three kind of categories so while while there's certainly a philosophical bent to this uh in the sense that we are big Believers in a censorship resistant economy and the potential effects that it can have on society the reason that we ultimately started working on Beanstalk first started working on the money first is primarily an economic reason which is to say that it it seemed to us uh and this is directly related to our our interpretation of ESD at the time where it was blowing up it seemed to us that the current options for money to be used on a trustless tech stack was uh or were the biggest hold up to the adoption of trustless Technology by businesses and at this point would probably uh feel comfortable saying definitively that that was wrong that there's actually a ton of different problems uh preventing businesses from adopting a trustless tech stack to perform their economic activity but the the concept that the money the the trustless money still isn't good enough for real economic activity that that is true the thing that was wrong was that that was the only thing missing uh but in in theory the the economics are such that if you're a business and the the majority of the modern economy runs on debt runs on borrowed money uh the basic question that needs to be able to be answered in the affirmative is if you're a business that wants to build on a trusses Tech stack uh can you actually borrow money in a way that is competitive to uh current borrower borrowing options where there is trust involved and so if you think about how a business might consider what are the different options available to it currently you have access to really cheap and stable money in the form of US Dollars and if you think about what the the US dollar is in the grand scheme of things it is a low volatility currency and the interest rates on that currency are highly subsidized in that they are uh artificially love and in short the way that the interest rates are able to be maintained artificially low is through the ability to print money and so it is it is in practice the low volatility of the value of the currency and the low interest rates on the currency that make dollars really the the heart of the current economy and if you compare that low volatility and low borrowing costs with the options for businesses that want to build on a trustless tech stack and borrow funds on chain and operate their business entirely trustlessly the options available to them are lacking at best so in short the the first axes that we axis that we highlighted is volatility there are currencies like Bitcoin and ether that are uh hard money if you will where the supplies are relatively restricted and the Dynamics of the currency are such that it accepts volatility in the interest of long-term value accrual and when when you're a business it's very difficult to borrow money and denominate that uh Loan in an asset that is highly volatile because even if you use the funds properly everything goes according to plan but the value of the currency that you denominated the debt in has fluctuated dramatically it's still very possible that even though you did all the work and planned everything appropriately uh because of the volatility of the currency you're unable to pay back the loan and you go bankrupt and so businesses are really looking for low volatility assets to denominate their loans in and if you look at the current implementation of of low volatility assets on chain and in particular if you looked at it uh at the time ESD was blowing up the the real options available were effectively centralized collateralized stable coins you had some decentralized collateralized stable coins uh but you really didn't have any sort of decentralized non-collateralized stable coins and if we go with the if we start with the first one uh centralized collateralized stable coins like usdc or usdt uh before we even talk about interest rates uh or borrowing costs the basic problem with using a central a stable coin issued by a centralized entity is that trustless this is a least common denominator problem and so if you have to use money that is issued by a single party that you have to trust and can censor you at the end of the day that's going to remove all of the utility associated with using a trustless tech stack and so then there are some uh let's call it decentralized or trustless collateralized stable coins uh LUSD or liquidy or is probably the best instance of it uh but in practice the fact that there is a collateral requirement to issue the stable coin uh means two things one it means that there's some implicit limit on the supply of the stable coin uh defined by the amount of available collateral uh to be locked up to issue the stable points and even if you're able to achieve relatively low volatility which was the first access we highlighted the collateral requirements ultimately create non-competitive borrowing costs so even if you have a relatively similar volatility asset on chain that is decentralized unless the borrowing costs on that asset can be competitive in terms of costs with centralized Alternatives like the US dollar it's going to be impossible for businesses to compete if their borrowing costs are much higher and if you think about the nature of collateral it's incredibly Capital inefficient whereby in order to issue more of the the asset as demand for the asset increases uh there's a need for more collateral to be locked up in order to create Supply and locking up collateral is very expensive and in particular if you are an owner of that collateral and you're thinking about locking up that collateral to Mint a stable coin to lend it out in short There's an opportunity cost that must be considered in terms of what are all the other things that you can do with that collateral instead of minting a stable coin against it and lending it out and so in practice even though you have some collateralized stable coins that are competitively volatile with the dollar they are structurally unable to compete in terms of borrowing costs because of the collateral requirement and so to get back to economically where where the problem was that we viewed uh needing solving was the concept of figuring out how to create a a low volatility asset that is is trustless in nature and decentralized to Nature where there is no opportunity cost associated with locking up collateral to Mint more of the currency and so the the concept is that and this is something that ESD was really an attempt at was a stable coin that can grow infinitely with demand so as demand for the stable coin increases as the economic activity using the stablecoin increases to Infinity at the margin there is no increase in cost associated with each marginal uh coin that is minted because there is no need to lock up collateral to Mint that coin and that's the the concept is that if if it is possible to create that money that is both competitive and volatility and caring costs with dollars uh then it will be possible in theory for businesses that want to build on trustless on a trustless tech stack to compete with businesses that are building on a trusted Tech stack but until the money itself is competitively performant with uh the money that businesses are currently using it's going to be impossible for a decentralized trustless economy to ever exist so that was really the problem as we saw it and being stock is an attempt at answering or solving that problem yeah great answer great great answer um so as you said the um Dyson kind of man and first point of criticism of the likes of your ctps in the space the scalability factor and that when everything unwinds it's um yeah we've seen that play out multiple times but um with a with a problem so large as a completely decentralized stable coin a lot of people would I wouldn't say shy away is the right word of trying to create that but they could probably seek less of a great attempt at building something so on paper that is difficult why did you guys decide to go down that route because from from the outside looking in you guys have got the capability of going after to build whatever you wanted in the space and you know stuff that um isn't as difficult as a problem is is there any reason that you guys were just so hell-bent on I'm trying to tackle the kind of decentralized algorithmics there behind problem I think someone will crack it it could be you guys it could be someone in the industry and the world effectively will be much greater for it but you guys could have shied away from trying to call that problem and went off to build I don't know XYZ product um was there anything just you know that you guys were like right this is this is it this is the one because people could look at it and say I mean not to say that you guys are like this but there's there's a lot more financially incentive ways to create a project in this place to put that politely but and this one seems like a a task that a lot of people would look at and just completely shy away from us they were away from well the the real answer is ignorance which is that we thought that the thing that was missing was the decentralized money and at this point in time feel like there's a whole lot missing to really facilitate trustless economic activity so the the reason we started working on the money was we thought that was the the missing piece of the puzzle and not to say that Beanstalk uh works or is is a finished thing uh it's very much still an experiment and a work in progress at this point pretty much objectively we can say that the the least common denominator in the trustless stack is no longer the money that being stock issues beans which are good enough uh or potentially good enough and there are certainly marginal improvements that can be made to the system and the quality of the currency but the reality is that the space is still not very close to being able to facilitate real economic activity and so even if we put aside scaling technology and privacy technology things that are more at the base layer of the network or networks themselves and just talk about using the network and what what activity economic activity people can perform on chain if you will uh feel like it's it's actually deeply lacking in capabilities effectively across the entire Tech stack so at this point we don't feel like the decentralized exchanges that exist are competitively performant with traditional exchanges centralized exchanges similarly the technology to facilitate loans on chain uh borrowing and lending Protocols are also not competitively performant with centralized borrowing and Lending Solutions and if you think about what is economic activity it's basically trading and borrowing and lending uh whereas we started with the money what are you gonna trade with and denominate your trades in and what asset are you going to borrow and lend in order to to perform economic activity at this point feel like both the decks and the borrow lending Tech if you will are are are are not good enough and so to a large extent our our work and our Focus uh it in coordination with other members of the Beanstalk Dow and this community or I'd say the Beanstalk Community has shifted towards development of a totally new decks and a totally new borrow lending protocol that should over time uh through taking advantage of the composable nature of ethereum actually be able to offer competitively performant uh options to businesses that wanna trade on chain or make markets on chain or issue loans on chain or all of the above uh the the point is at this point it seems like those are those are probably the least common denominators to facilitating real economic activity and therefore it's become a significant part of the focus yeah it's a great point on the whole decks versus sex argument um and with the legend of borrowing we're starting to see a lot of um under collateralized players come into the space you've got the maples damn finance and things like that um do you think that under collateralization can truly work on a trustless manner given everything that we've seen from some of the large actors in this space and do you think there's a room for that one chain uh do you have any opinions on that so the short answer is yes it can definitely work on chain the the big problem that needs to be solved is if you issue an undercoateralized Loan in theory whoever you lent the money to can just run away with the loan and because in a in in a decentralized setting you can basically just spin up a new wallet uh there's no cost to taking the money and running and to a large extent that risk of running off with the money can really be mitigated through the loans being held by the contracts where liquidation takes place so let let's give an example let's say uh you put up a thousand dollars and I lend you nine thousand dollars uh so you've only put up a thousand dollars now you have ten thousand dollars to work with the concept is that instead of you taking those ten thousand dollars and now running with it uh you can perform whatever activities you want with the ten thousand dollars but the the ten thousand dollars of value remains custody by uh the CDP if you will or the contract that facilitates the loan such that uh the only real rule that must be enforced by The Lending protocol is that if the value of the assets decreases from ten thousand down to let's call it nine thousand and change for the changes the liquidation buffer uh the idea is that you can do whatever you want with those ten thousand dollars as long as the value of the the loan doesn't decrease below nine thousand dollars such that I as a lender uh have the guarantee that you're not going to be able to take the money and run with it because the contract won't allow you to perform actions that result in the value of the loan or the liquidation value of the loan falling below the value of the capital that I lent to you but you as a borrower should be able to do effectively whatever you want with the loan in the meantime and so the the the chain does offer a a platform or an arena for arbitrary economic activity and the way to get around the lending problem is not to impose limitations on what people can do with the funds that they're borrowing but instead ensure that the contracts retain ownership of the assets ultimately such that liquidations can be performed to mitigate the risk to to the lenders if that makes sense yeah fantastic concept great way of looking at it um so getting onto Beanstalk can we do for some people who might not have heard of you guys um can we do like a high level of the product and then we can slowly start getting into some features and I'll just let you unpick them um and then kind of yep we'll stick with that so like high level of the of the product problem it's solving and some of the main key features that people should be aware of sure so beamstock uh and we don't say this to scare anyone off but just say it to you know in a in an honest fashion is very complicated and so if people are interested in understanding the protocol uh the community and DOW have gone through Great Lengths to ensure that there's a significant amount of documentation and a white paper and all of it has been meticulously maintained and at this point the solidity code is all being redocumented uh for even better Clarity and understanding and so it's worth saying that it's a there's a lot there and we will try to do justice in in short form to to be in stock but it's it is worth saying it's probably uh something that is best understood through some independent study so with with that as a caveat or a preface at a high level Beanstalk attempts to mimic or model the economics of the US dollar where if you think about what it is that is giving value and stability to the US dollar is the credit worthiness of the US government whereby uh users of the US dollar are effectively making an assumption that the U.S government will will remain credit worthy and as long as the U.S government is able to issue debt uh or borrow money from the market uh if that assumption is true then in theory the the value of the dollar should remain relatively stable or intact and be Beanstalk offers a similar proposition whereby if you assume and this is a big assumption but if you assume that Beanstalk as a protocol is credit worthy meaning that Beanstalk will be able to borrow assets from the open market over time what that means is that the the protocol should be able to create uh low volatility in beams in the stable coin that it issues so the fundamental Assumption of a user of beans or of Beanstalk is that the protocol is credit worthy and through borrowing on the open market uh the protocol is effectively able to erase enough money to create low volatility in in the currency that it issues awesome awesome yeah I I'd um highly recommend people go and uh check out the documentation you're completely writing what you sent on paper it's a it's a lot greater to and a lot greater the medium to actually understand it but um so what is like the current is there any kind of immediate items on the roadmap that people should be aware of or is there any kind of challenges that you guys are going to tackle in the immediate future or is it pretty much um maintenance at this point and then kind of see how the market reacts and then trying to make decisions post up so there's there's two different angles of development at the moment one is development of Beanstalk itself and the second is the development of the decks the borrow lend protocol all the associated uh pieces of the tech stack that are missing to ultimately facilitate real economic activity in a trustless fashion now Beanstalk at this point the the core economics of the protocol are relatively established uh but there's a ton of work and improvements that can be made at the margin to the way that the model works such that the ability for the protocol to maintain low volatility in in beings in the being price uh can be further improved and we would argue it could still be dramatically improved and in addition to the peg maintenance side of things there's a major open question around governance so in April of 2022 beanstalk's on-chain governance system was exploited for around 200 million dollars uh which at the time was all of the value in the protocol uh it was effectively a 51 attack on the Dow and at this point Beanstalk is operating with a hybrid but effectively an off-chain governance system and the other in addition to improving the peg maintenance of the system the other big to do on the Beanstalk angle is the re-implementation of permissionless on-chain governance and that is one of the main focuses of development over the next three to six months let's call it or potentially even longer but that is a main focus in the short term in addition to development on Beanstalk there is a ton of really fascinating development happening in the Beanstalk ecosystem as a whole including the development of a a totally new Dex architecture which should be the basis of a a deck that can actually offer competitive trading experiences to centralized exchanges uh and uh a borrow lend protocol uh which really should facilitate a variety of different uh uh Financial activity not just loans but bets uh on Sports and prices and all sorts of different things such that you can really start to have an entire economy running on a trustless tech stack so at this point there's the Beanstalk development which is happening and there's the ecosystem development which consists of the decks the borrow lend desk and all of the associated tech there and then there's all sorts of all of this stuff that we've been talking about is on-chain development but there's also middleware and front-end development that's happening to create a really Best in Class user experience for operating a business or uh what have you uh in a trustless fashion so at this point there's a ton of different work happening and would uh if you're humorous would use this as an opportunity to just shout out if you're curious and hungry and want to build some cool there's tons of work to be done and lots of really awesome people that are are participating in this development and uh we're always looking for more people to join the fun so a lot to be done Lots going on and uh that's a good place to be from our perspective yeah 100 it sounds like the the ecosystem is is truly but it's kind of clear um Road Muffler and it seems like um the right kind of steps forward for you guys um how with regards to people helping and chipping in how does how does that whole process work from your end is is it a traditional we have a job let's take someone on as a community lad like can you tell me the Dynamics of how that how that works yeah this is maybe one of the most interesting parts of what's going on here which is this is very much a a web 3 development model so Beanstalk itself uh the Dow has funded uh the creation of and maintenance of Beanstalk Farms which is a development organization that's primarily working on Beanstalk and the associative ecosystem but at this point there are actually a couple of different companies and entrepreneurs that have spun up their own companies effectively that are building on the beanstock ecosystem so there's private companies that have employees that are building some of this Tech there's entrepreneurs that are building new startups that are probably hopefully going to get funded in the next couple of months that are building certain parts of this Tech and then there's uh the Dow funded sort of core contributors of being stock Farms that are uh holding down the fort and trying to connect the dots and serve as some glue for the ecosystem so lots of moving Parts lots of different ways to get involved with different uh risks and rewards for contributors and it really does feel like the beginning of uh a new way of doing things which is sort of right in line with with what's going on here if that makes sense yeah so where do you think that kind of because it feels like there's more than a monetary incentive surrounding the community to go and build stuff like a lot of people it's like show me the incentive I'll show you the outcome but it feels like there's this strange but really intriguing kind of drive from people that are building over there what was that where's that came from obviously there's a huge community over there um do you have any kind of insight on that well first it would be hard to Discount the monetary upside uh if Beanstalk is to be successful as the issuer of the new money that the the economy ultimately uses uh there is likely to be an immense amount of Financial upside for early contributors and early holders of of beans and therefore it's it is hard to Discount the the monetary angle of it but at the same time uh it does really feel like the people that are contributing here are while they certainly want to make money if they're successful are looking to participate and contribute to something that is much bigger than themselves and this whole system is ultimately so large and complex and expansive such that it's really impossible for any one person or group of people to to touch all of it and there's something really special about people sort of raising their hands and opting in to work on one piece of the puzzle and uh the attitude does seem to pervade the community of if the piece of the puzzle that I'm working on or you're working on or any of us are working on individually is done properly and we are all doing it at the individual level uh as best we can that over time the collective effort is likely going to turn into something much much larger than what any of us are capable of doing alone and it's both very exciting and rewarding but there's also a lot of friction there in the sense of it's not so easy to ensure that everyone is coordinated and is working on Tech that doesn't overlap and can be composed together and is solving the key problems so it's it's a little bit easier said than done to ensure that all of the pieces of the puzzle are ultimately getting built and getting built the right way such that they can can be pieced together but if you're asking about why people are participating in it it does feel like there's something real going on here and people are are compelled to to work on something real is is how we understand it yeah I was just I was just gonna ask you a question but you actually answered the well you kind of touched upon it I was with the kind of breadth of development that is happening and that you said it correctly the the web3 style crypto net of style of how people bond together and things I was just going to ask how how are you guys doing on an organization standpoint because I know what it's like you got a Discord or a telegram it's it can be quite chaotic some people think are pulling in One Direction some people are pulling in another it's um just kind of face those challenges as they come uh we like to joke that we are optimizing in real time and that's the only way to handle it because uh yeah too many moving pieces and too hard to see more than about a day or two in advance so at the same time it is really important to have a North star uh that everyone is working towards and to that end to try to help contribute to the North Star we published uh in early January of this year like a long form blog piece sort of talking about where we see this going and it wasn't even necessarily about Beanstalk more about the the D5 stack as a whole and where where the holes are and uh hopefully that will serve as a a a a a North star for people that are trying to figure out what it is that's being built and why it's being built and how it all fits together uh but at the end of the day uh the real thing is endless communication with the people that are are building this so lots of phone calls and just constantly trying to Circle up and ensure that we're all generally on the same page and uh yeah it's a very much a an experiment in terms of the best way to do development and really open and decentralized way but so far so good I feel like there's a lot of good stuff happening and uh I am pretty Amazed by the the pace of development so it's uh yeah these are good problems to have yeah there'll be care studies on this stuff in years to come how people coordinate online and builds ridiculously incredible Financial infrastructure I'm kind of sure of it um I'd be I'd probably get hung for not asking um how is the sentiment around um the price action of being at the minute is like I know we had a conversation prior and I completely understand where you're coming from and I have my own kind of opinions on it as well but it's how's the kind of sentiment in the camp Community uh and how are you guys kind of thinking about it so it depends who you ask so for context right now the bean price is chilling at about 94 cents uh so six percent off of its Peg of a dollar and last crossed a dollar around two months ago and has been slowly decreasing in price from a dollar down to where it currently sits at 94 cents and on the one hand it's not good because the goal of Beanstalk is to regularly cross the bean price above and below its Peg which is currently a dollar but on the other hand if you consider the nature of Bank runs and in particular look at the collapse of uh under collateralized or non-collateralized systems uh similar to Beanstalk in the past uh they all tend to crash and burn pretty quickly and bomb stock has certainly gone through it yeah violently is probably a good word Beanstalk has certainly had its share of uh uh crashes the price has gone down to as low as 24 cents in the past and been in the 70s and 80s and 90 cents range before uh but in particular this downturn if you will is unique or new in the slowness of the burn and if you consider that the goal of Beanstalk is to be anti-reflexive such that during Bank runs uh instead of the economically efficient Behavior being to hop on the bus and participate in the bank run uh instead the the system tries to create incentives such that the economically efficient Behavior if you continue to believe in the protocol uh and in particular the protocol's ability to borrow money in the future is to hang out and so this sort of slow burn down to 94 cents and it may continue lower uh assuming that at some point in the future the system returns to its Peg uh it would be hard to look at this period of time it's anything other than very positive in the sense that this is more data that when the system is lacking in demand there's no demand new demand for beans there's no demand to lend to the protocol uh that the system doesn't Crash and Burn violently but instead just slowly bleeds out and weathers the storm slowly and steadily and I guess the the question is is this a bleed out such that the system will die or is this just a little bit of a bloodletting given that uh there seem to have been too much uh beans minted previously and now this is what happens when you have too much Supply and not enough demand you have a decrease in price so uh it's very hard to talk about whether or not this is good or bad ultimately because if the protocol fails at some point then obviously it will have been bad but if the assumption is that the protocol uh is not dead and is not dying but this is just another chapter in its ability to create low volatility in the price of the currency uh from that perspective it's probably pretty good and pretty healthy for the market to see how this works uh at scale and yeah it's uh unclear what the future holds but the fact that the system is generally hanging in there uh despite the horrible macroeconomic conditions and crypto conditions and having all the protocols money stolen in April uh Things Are yeah things could definitely be worse they could also be better but uh they could definitely be worse yeah completely completely agree I mean it feels like every week we've kind of got this weird Black Swan event that happens and you know as you say it could be um drastically worse it could be it could be what you guys expect it to be like it's just I think it's just a sign of the times across the crypto economy and also a wider global economy as well um the way the way I was kind of looking at it prior was this isn't something not new and I think it's because people if we go down the stable coin route we associate stable coin to be picked up um a dollar but this this stuff was happening in additional pegged assets versus prior to um the merge or um if you think about steak days and Eve there was always a premium to effectively redeem um your eighth through the sticky pool and I suppose it also can be considered um a cost of or a premium for maintain and censorship resistance and optionality in the centralized stable client space as well if you if you take to its attend conclusion with centralized stable coins um you could end up in a tornado tornado cash situation where you're effectively betting on you yourself not getting Frozen by tether or Circle and six percent seems nothing in the ground scheme of things when it could be 100 so that's just kind of my two cents on on the whole matter what's the inflation rate in the U.S it's off by about six ten percent right now so from its Target so Peg maintenance is very much an inexact science and uh one of the the big differences that Beanstalk makes from other attempts at non-collateralized stable coins is there is no hard Peg and there is no promise that a bean is worth what it what it's pegged to and that is this is the in practice uh the market learning that that's the way this works and hopefully at some point Beanstalk is able to repeg the bean price and everything's hunky-dory awesome well we're getting up to the top of the hour um I just want to thank you for that you speak extremely well [Music] um your um very good spokesman for the project and um I really look forward to seeing like this new new product rollouts and um when we've got something that um the viewers and the listeners can can physically see and things like that let's let's run it backwards get some kind of demos going on let's talk through the products but um yeah once again thanks thanks very much for coming on really enjoyed chatting and if you need anything from us uh you know where it'll find us and just just give it a shout I'm more than happy to help thank you very much sir thank you for having us yep anytime anytime and if you're listening uh this should be we're recording this on the 19th of January should take a couple of days to get out so just kind of like mind while you're listening and yeah thanks again and we'll see you next time 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