- Class Notes:
- What are the implications of liquid seed and stalk?
- What variations/modifications to the Balancer vault do you need to make to incorporate it into Beanstalk?
- How do we think seed and stalk liquidity help clear existing debt? Do we think it’ll help attract new investors to Beanstalk?
- What are some of the tax implications of seed and stalk being liquid?
- Are there any plans to partner with an insurance provider for smart contract risk, etc.?
- Could you talk more about the advantages/mechanics of the Curve integration?
- Soil issuance—why is Beanstalk still issuing so much soil when there’s 10M+ outstanding soil, and how does BIP-9 help mitigate that?
- Multi-chain compatible Beanstalk—on AVAX there’s lower gas fees. How would that affect Beanstalk?
- What’s the motivation behind turning stalk/seeds into ERC-20 tokens?
- Does fundraising affect bean price in anyway?
- How does the price of ETH halving or doubling affect the price of bean?
- What would you say to folks that are worried about the high debt level and seasons to pod clearance?
- Is there a maximum amount of debt that the protocol is willing to take on? How does that affect partnerships?
- Given the growth of stablecoins in 2021 (500%), where do you see them going in 2022?
- Q1 budget proposal — take a look when we drop it in the next 24 hours or so!
- roadmap for active projects coming
- BIP-9 will get proposed in the next couple days
- intend to launch BEAN/3CRV pool around the new year
What are the implications of liquid seed and stalk?
- One thing we’re considering is to launch Balancer pool with beans, stalk, seeds, and silo beans, maybe even with ETH. Still in the research phase as far as optimal solution when it comes to pools to provide liquidity to for stalk/seeds.
- The most obvious implication would be that when stalk is liquid, every season you are in the silo you are earning a liquid asset. Right now, you only earn beans when the price is above 1. That is pretty interesting in terms of demand for being in the silo.
- In addition to beans getting integrated into other DeFi protocols, stalk and seed will be able to be integrated as well once they are liquid. One complexity we are working now is creating factory contracts for other protocols to integrate stalk/seed. If stalk/seed is held in a smart contract (like in Aave for example), they’ll have to have a way for their users to claim their earned assets.
- Potentially a ton of demand for a yield bearing asset like stalk and seeds. Any demand for these assets would increase demand for beans.
What variations/modifications to the Balancer vault do you need to make to incorporate it into Beanstalk?
- Main thing we want to consider, is that if want that to be the main liquidity provider for stalk/seeds/etc, we would want it to be incentivized through Beanstalk (depositing in the silo)
- Can’t directly fork the Balancer vault because Beanstalk is a diamond contract
- Some complexity involved in pricing the LP tokens
How do we think seed and stalk liquidity help clear existing debt? Do we think it’ll help attract new investors to Beanstalk?
- May or may not help us clear debt, but a more efficient Beanstalk will help Beanstalk in general. Clearing debt is mainly due to growth in demand for beans.
- In general it’s still kinda a chicken and egg problem where new investors and integrations tend to come hand in hand. They both lead to more of the other. Less focused on predicting those things and more focused on solving that problem from a product perspective.
What are some of the tax implications of seed and stalk being liquid?
- We are not tax advisors/experts, but we are trying to design things in a way that are more tax efficient. When you deposit in the silo, you’ll have the option to send the stalk/seed directly to your wallet. We’d like to give users that customizability.
- Balancer allows folks to deposit assets, trade within Balancer, etc while there isn’t anything happening in your wallet. This is the model we’d like to emulate.
Are there any plans to partner with an insurance provider for smart contract risk, etc.?
- Nothing actively going on but that would be of interest to us, if decentralized solutions exist.
Could you talk more about the advantages/mechanics of the Curve integration?
- Curve is unique from Uniswap in that they implemented what they call the stable swap. It allows for assets that are pegged to the same value (like USDC/BEAN, BEAN/3CRV, etc) to be swapped more easily and for lower fees. There will be ability to trade BEAN against USDT/USDC/DAI that will cause less slippage than the Uniswap model.
- Curve’s algorithm can more easily maintain peg even if the balances in the pool aren’t 1:1 like with BEAN/ETH in Uniswap. You can check this out here https://curve.fi/lusd and see that theres 2/3 LUSD to 3CRV, but the price is still $1
- Goal is to integrate the Curve pool into the Silo directly, i.e. deposit Curve LP tokens into the Silo.
Soil issuance—why is Beanstalk still issuing so much soil when there’s 10M+ outstanding soil, and how does BIP-9 help mitigate that?
- Correct, Beanstalk does not need to issue that much soil. BIP-9 will drastically change the amount of soil available.
- This is something we’ve gotten better at while seeing Beanstalk grow and get more data—determining where to tweak the economic model to make it more efficient.
- Excessive soil almost dissuades people from sowing immediately, I may be better off waiting a couple hours for more soil to accumulate.
- BIP-9 proposes every season only having the amount of the amount of soil necessary to bring price back up to $1 (relatively)—the point being that if there is soil you should sow it right away. BIP 6 only changed the minimum soil, BIP 9 changes the maximum soil
Multi-chain compatible Beanstalk—on AVAX there’s lower gas fees. How would that affect Beanstalk?
- An interesting measure would be how frequently farmers update their silo. We don’t like that there’s this thing you have to do in order to manage your silo deposit. But in another way, it demonstrates high intent to stay in the silo if folks are paying hundreds in gas to update your silo.
- Frankly, hard to speculate about that future behavior when we have to little data.
What’s the motivation behind turning stalk/seeds into ERC-20 tokens?
- The ability to sell stalk/seeds will greatly increase the stickiness of deposits in the silo. You’ll have to burn the appropriate stalk/seeds in order to withdraw. If you have lent out, sold them, etc, you’ll be unable to withdraw your assets unless you go buy stalk/seeds on the market.
- Stalk/seeds are great assets to serve as derivatives instruments around the Beanstalk ecosystem because stalk/seeds both are speculative mechanisms on the future growth of Beanstalk.
- Beginnings of sophisticated financial ecosystem around Beanstalk
Does fundraising affect bean price in anyway?
- No, the fundraiser does not interact with bean. You are “sowing” your USDC and you still get pods.
- Arbitrage opportunity when the price of bean is above a dollar because it’s cheaper to sow USDC
How does the price of ETH halving or doubling affect the price of bean?
- Once there’s a BEAN/3CRV pool the price of BEAN won’t be so correlated with the ETH price, so the Curve pool will be important
- before that pool is up, if the price of ETH halves the price of bean will half. But the Convert BIP mitigates this, so we would expect bean price to be more than 50 cents.
What would you say to folks that are worried about the high debt level and seasons to pod clearance?
- Seasons to Pod Clearance is not a great estimate given the cyclical nature of Beanstalk. APYs will also come down lower. But these aren’t really accurate.
- Our expectation would be that in January we’d probably see some more demand for bean, but that isn’t super substantive.
- To the question if the debt level (pod line) is unsustainable—this is the ultimate question. Beanstalk has to answer that question by paying off all its debt.
- between BIPs 6 and 9 the amount of debt issuance will become much more efficient
- price is doing well—this will hopefully contribute to demand which will contribute to the debt leveraging.
Is there a maximum amount of debt that the protocol is willing to take on? How does that affect partnerships?
- Short answer is no, but the more substantive question is if Beanstalk is able to continue to attract sowers at a certain debt level. Up to this point, there is still demand for the debt.
- The pump and dump in September ended up being a great proof point to show how Beanstalk can recover. When Beanstalk deleverages entirely, people will look back at this time and see that Beanstalk paid off all it’s debt and will make it even more resilient.
- Beanstalk is the longest living algo stablecoin, apart from maybe Ampleforth. But in the ESD/Basis Cash model, Beanstalk has survived the longest at its peg.
Given the growth of stablecoins in 2021 (500%), where do you see them going in 2022?
- The big open question is how much demand there is for non-centralized stablecoins (what happens with stablecoin regulation?). Or which blockchains are going to win adoption.
- Goal is for adding blockchains for Beanstalk to eventually be modular and easy to do.
um we're working on a road map that should be released here pretty soon so that's exciting um i don't have to go through all the different items on it but uh yeah just a ton of really great stuff going on at the farm um again if you're uh interested in uh you know in working for uh beanstalk or volunteering or helping out or using your skills in any way you can feel free to reach out to me um and we'll schedule a call and uh love to see how uh how you could fit in here and without going too much longer i guess we could probably get started probably if you have anything to bib add is also gonna get proposed in the next couple days and the only other piece uh of development happening in the next couple days is uh we do intend to launch a bm3 curve pool which will likely only be accessible through the bean stock ui to start but um you know we hope to launch that around the new year as well okay great and i'm guessing they'll probably be a question or two relating to that today but to jump things off um if you have any questions and you don't want to ask them yourself you can put them in the um let's see where do we where do we put them we put them in the barnyard chat or know in the discussion board here so you can put them down the discussion board and i'll read them or you can raise your hand come up on stage and get your questions answered wow we've got our first winter nft coming up here in profit i just invited you up there you go hey everybody um thanks guys yeah i love this nft i was so happy um yeah so i had a quick question uh maybe not quick but i'm kind of interested in like what are the implications of the stock and seed becoming erc20 tokens and like just at a high level how would that like kind of look so what are the implications is too broad so instead we're trying to speak about some of the implications because the potential implications are maybe infinite now the first thing is if we're actually starting to think about things a little bit differently perhaps we were originally thinking that the best way to implement stock and seeds is to do uh beanstalk bean seed and bean silo bean uh lp pools on uniswap but now that beanstalk is expanding to curve and we hope to incorporate curve into the silo as well so beanstalk is now going to be on multiple decks you started thinking about well what are you know potentially other options for implementing stock and seeds and how will that how will that all affect a larger ecosystem and how can we make things as fluid and frictionless as possible while still allowing for you know accurate price discovery so if anything be you know to speak substantively like one thing that we're considering is to launch a balancer pool with beans stock seeds and silo beans and maybe also ethereum for example um but at the for the time being we're still in the research phase as to the optimal solution here um so some of the implications will be dependent on the specific solution but in general the the most obvious implication will be that you go from right now in the silo there's only yield when the price is above one or the t whop is above one whereas when stock is liquid every season that you're in the silo you're actually earning a liquid asset assuming that you own seeds and so you there will be some aspect of continuous interest from beans stock even when the price is less than one uh which is interesting in terms of its effect on demand for being in the silo now there's also the x like the question of the externalities that may maybe that's not the right word but the uh outside of beanstalk uh things that may happen once stock and seeds are liquid that could uh greatly positively affect beanstalk so in addition to beans starting to be adopted and integrated in various protocols across d5 stock and seeds can also be there they're going to be implemented as erc20 tokens so they can also be integrated relatively easily not as easily as beans because stock and seeds are yield bearing so bean stock needs to account somehow uh for uh who earns the interest right uh so uh one of the complexities with regards to implementing stock and seeds uh that beanstalk farms is working on is creating factory contracts that will allow for other protocols to easily integrate stock and seeds into their protocol so for example if i have stock and i want to lend it out uh in a compound or of a pool for example uh while my stock uh is in the pool and not being lent out it's being held by a smart contract as far as bean stock is concerned that smart contract owns the stock so ave our compound will have to implement uh an integration with beanstalk in order to allow for the people that are contributing liquidity to their smart contracts in order to make sure that they can later on claim their their siloed assets if you will on their interest that has been earned while they were uh in the in the ave lending pool for example so there's some complexity there but when we talk about the implications of that um there's potentially a ton of demand uh across a variety of different protocols for a yield bearing asset like stock and seeds um stock and seeds are both very interesting in their own right and how the market and different protocols we'll choose to integrate them remains to be seen and that's why we started off with the implications are sort of infinite but it's very exciting because any implementation or integration of stock and seeds or even silo beans uh will ultimately result in more demand for beans so the ecosystem is going to get increasingly sophisticated uh such that there's not only an increase in demand and utility uh of beans uh demand for on utility beans but there's also going to be demand for a utility of stock and seeds which will increase the demand uh and stability of beans okay thanks for that question check in the discussion board here okay we got a question from evan what variations to the balancer vault do you need to make do you need to make to incorporate it beanstalk what variations yeah evan can you clarify well the [Music] go ahead um yeah i guess by variations um you know i i imagine that you're not simply just forking the balance or vault and that's done so i guess like what kind of maybe modifications is a better word um you know like what about yeah yeah the main thing that we would want to consider is that you would want that pool if it was going to be the main hub to the main hub for liquidity for stock and seeds and silo beans uh you may want it to be incentivized through beanstalk meaning the ability to deposit uh the lp tokens into beanstalk um but beyond that um you know we're talking about like a balance or pool uh not like similar to integrating a curve pool or the current unit swap pool um there is some complexity involved with pricing the lp tokens how do you figure out the bean denominated value of the lp tokens but um you know it's not about forking a balance or balancer it's about implementing a balancer pool okay so then it seems like the question like you might be asking might be related to kind of what we are saying about allowing beanstalk to manage you know different internal balances across um like within the bean stock system and um you know the hard part is we can't directly fork the balance revolve given that beanstalk is a diamond crack now what about the balancer ball allows you to do is basically just deposit you know any erc20 token into the smart contract that maintains an internal balance so basically the balancer vault would hold up you know a thousand beans and the balance revolve will basically say you have a balance of 1000 now the balancer vault can trade on you can basically have the balancer ball trade on your behalf add liquidity to particular pools all kind of for you without the funds ever leaving now we are kind of modifying that functionality to apply to beanstalk well while like applying it within our internal you know diamond state to allow users to move any erc20 tokens around beanstalk in a similar fashion but we're not directly forking it because of the fact that we use a diamond and we have to manage our own you know internal state a different way um so it's kind of two separate things here one is a balancer pool and then two is modeling bead stocks you know internal accounting mechanism after balancers vault okay and i guess just to be clear then so yeah forking is not a good word um and so you do have to make the modifications and so you're still going to keep the base structure so i guess it's like taking inspiration from balancer and then kind of yeah mod like everything you said but the main idea will still stand with the vault interacting with the factory contracts and i guess like the same math behind it as well yeah um pretty much the you know the thing is obviously the balance revolves only is made to interact with balancers contracts meaning trading and depositing liquidity and balancer you know more so the functionality that we're going to have to implement ourselves is the functionality to kind of leverage balancers kind of um you know infrastructure to deposit assets into the silo to trade assets on you know our unit swap pools on the curve pool and liquidity and all that so it's more so going to be taking a lot of the existing grabber functionality around bean stock and you know using balancers kind of internal accounting mechanism um through you know are kind of you know remodel of their fault so are you building on top of balance sir i guess is that the um not quite it's more so you know i mean it's we are you know coding from scratch and you know leo fib who's in the audience is doing a lot of that work um but it's more so we're just you know modeling it and designing it based on how they designed it you know kind of just giving the you know the initial idea credit where credit is due but we're kind of free making it entirely from scratch so it's more so just you know giving them credit for you know coming up with that kind of internal token tracking that can spot it all right yeah thanks for the clarification we have some very nice new uh bnft's bernoulli i love it um okay do you have any more questions do i have any questions your discussion board okay this is from tb3456 do we think seed and stock liquidity help clear existing debt part two do we think it will help us attract new investors to bean stock so stock and seed liquidity may or may not directly help us clear debt other than a more efficient market for beanstalk uh will generally help uh be in stock in general but keep in mind that clearing debt is going to be a primarily a function of the growth of being stock and demand for beans now stock and seeds and integrations of stock and seeds is definitely one part of that um so that shouldn't be understated but it would be more of a secondary effect um and what was the second question dumpling i apologize uh no problem back there do we think it will help us attract new investors to beanstalk the you know the fact of stock and seed becoming liquid well in general things are still chicken and eggy on that front where the new investors and new integrations tend to come hand in hand and it's difficult to say which will cause the other so stock and seeds going live may attract new investors which may lead to more integrations or stockings going live may may lead to more integrations uh which may lead to more investors but um we're less in the you know business of predicting that type of thing and more focused on building the product that we think will also will cause cause the chicken and egg to be solved one way or another so uh hard to say specifically but in theory yes we would just use this opportunity to highlight that beanstalk farms as an organization uh you know and being sprout hopefully with the passage of the q on budget which we intend to propose shortly uh you know is aggressively organizing to facilitate integrations uh for beans stock seeds silo beans uh working on the pod marketplace um so there's a lot when we talk about paying off the debt um or really decreasing the debt level right under the new soil changes uh from dip six uh once there's excess demand for soil meaning no soil left there will the pod line will stay at the same length uh even as pods are paid off and the bean supply increases so the pod line will stay just as long but the debt level will decrease dramatically and the de-leveraging will happen so paying off debt will continue to happen as being stock grows but deleveraging which is ultimately what matters uh will be a function of continued expansion of integration so uh on that front i do want to highlight that mr manifold um who's been a community member for a couple uh months now uh has come on in a more uh full-time capacity as of today um to to hopefully lead being sprout um and and help facilitate those integrations and there's a couple other community members that are really helping aggressively uh get beanstalk integrated with other protocols like george um so we're very excited about what's going on there but the passage of the q1 budget will expedite that and i know this was a little bit of a uh not a direct answer to your question but it's deeply relevant when it comes to paying off uh debt and deleveraging ultimately okay i don't think hi publius so my question is what would be some of the tax implications won one stock and seed goes liquid so this is not tax advice and we're not tax experts but at the same time thanks to community members that are tax uh tax native if you will um or certainly much smarter on taxes than we are uh we are trying to design things in a way that are uh potentially more tax efficient um so for example while uh it you know you when you deposit beans in the silo or acids in the silo you're credited with stock and seeds um you'll have the option whether to have the stock and seeds sent to your wallet and so there's a lot of customizability that we're gonna offer users on how to structure their transactions uh in terms of claiming different assets uh across the board um to to allow to allow for users to customize how they want to structure things uh you know at a micro level hopefully um now to clarify a little bit what publius was speaking about earlier um we have taken notice of the way that balancer utilizes the balance revolt and allows people to effectively deposit assets and then have a balance and move assets around and trade within balancer while there's nothing actually happening within your wallet which is generally the model that we intend to emulate um because we have been advised that it is potentially tax efficient but again that's not tax advice um but we are structuring beanstalk to be flexible for however whoever does give you tax advice says you uh are better off structuring your transactions right right uh so any tax efficiencies uh is certainly appreciated by me um my other question is are there any plans to partner with an insurance provider similar to ust where you can basically get insurance against contract risk and peg risk there's nothing actively going on but that sounds very attractive to us um you know we'd be very interested in looking at decentralized solutions for that um if that's available at the moment but that's not somewhere that we've spent a lot of time researching candidly so uh we would we would be relying on the community to propose a couple of options yeah true thank you this is a great idea um i wanted to jump in here and just since the with the uh the curved three pool coming up um can you just give us a little bit of an overview of um of that the mechanics of of curve the the kind of the pros and cons the costs associated um everything like that just for uh kind of at a high level for us definitely there's there's a lot here so bear with us um curve is unique from uniswap in that uh they implemented what they call the stable swap and it effectively allows for assets that are pegged to the same value like uh beans in usdc for example or using usdt or beans in three curve which is uh in the case of three curves they have a pool of dye usdc and tether um and that's called the three curve pool and uh you can actually build like very easily a factory pull against the three curve pool um and accordingly there's going to be the ability to trade beans against die usdc and tether according to the curve stable swap algorithm which will uh involve much less slippage then the unit swap x times y equals k uh you know constant product so go ahead guys yeah so a good example of this the apple usd pool in the discussion board now if you look here there is you know around 67 million lu and 47 million three curve which is about two-thirds l usd or three-thirds usd to t and the price is still 1.01 so even though there is a huge just the price is still able to stay bro you're cutting in and out so we're uh we're losing you um sounds relevant and good though yeah so yeah just to reiterate it um you know drop the link to the l usd three curve poll in the discussion board if you click on that you can see in the currency there's 67 million l usd to about 47 million curve three curve and that's about three thirds lusd to two-thirds three curve and the price is able to still be 1.01 cents now if we were to have those ratios are you know a uniswell pool the price would be you know far different but the you know the uh algorithm or the formula within three you know manages to able to maintain even though there's a discrepancy so uh it's still a little hard to hear you publius but um with the slight correction of uh you mean two-fifths and three-fifths um yes uh so the point is despite the fact that it's three to two the price is still 1.01 um so there's much less slippage um or not even slippage as it's traditionally defined but in general for a similar amount of liquidity you'll be able to buy and sell a lot more beans closer to a dollar so that's very exciting um because it means the beans will stabilize even closer to a dollar now the immediate implication of that is that in the short term if minton is not considered but the price is always within ascent there's not going to be a lot of minting of beans or soil and so once the three curve pool is launched one of the priorities on beanstalk farms and will be to start to integrate the curve pool into the silo directly both into the mending schedule uh slash the oracle and also allowing uh lp holders of the bm3 curve pool to deposit that into the silo as well and start earning stuff and seeds so the hope is that over the course of january there's a complete integration of curve um you know the being three curve pool and uh we hope to make curve you know a part of beanstalk uh and its plans to expand the other chains as well going forward because of curve success on other chains as well so uh the hope is to make this a uh an upgrade to beanstalk that pays dividends both now and in the long run so once that happens the minting will sort of start resuming as normal and then even at it 1.01 you could see massive printing so you'll see a lot tighter price stability wall uh you know a resumption of the efficiency of the system okay um yeah that sounds great that was a good uh good overview uh okay so we're open for other questions hey maybe before we move on sorry to cut you off austin you're just highlighting um you know there's not that much of an incentive to add liquidity to the three curve pool if there's no gauge and curve and it's not integrated into the silo so we're not really going to ask people to do that per se but would just highlight that that would be cool um for people to do but it's very much like that that's altruistic behavior and not capital efficient so it's hard for us to ask people to do that um and accordingly we're gonna work to upgrade beanstalk to incorporate three curve to make that behavior incentivized uh but just shouting out that once that launches if people had some liquidity that that's cool too awesome um i had a question about soil issuance um at the last couple amas folks tend to ask something along the lines of you know why beanstalk still issues soil when it's above a dollar and you've said on multiple occasions essentially beanstalk wants to mint some non-zero amount of soil even in seasons where the t-wop is above a dollar in order to test demand for soil as that's an input to weather among other things but i've seen cases recently where even when we have a large amount of outstanding soil i think 10 plus million right now there are still times where it creates soil and i was wondering i'm still having trouble wrapping my head around why beanstalk needs to do that now when there is so much outstanding soil where it can still test what the demand for soil is uh season to season um and to what and i guess my follow-up question is to what extent bip9 uh helps mitigate some of that um i've read over the document in the and the bit but haven't you know broken down the uh the formula if you will so it's a fabulous question in short you're entirely correct beanstalk does not need to issue that much soil and right now it still has too much soil outstanding bip9 will change drastically the amount of soil that is available from some sort of uh some uh up to a maximum percent uh which is the current case so if there's a time weighted average currently if there's a time weighted average shortage of 250 000 beans in the pool um this season there's 250 000 soil minted and then if no one buys or sells over the next hour there's another 250 000 soil minted uh that that is excessive now the on the one hand the original idea behind it which is was misguided um was envisioning sort of a more efficient system uh which both due to each friction a small nature of uh being stuck at the moment but just in general um you know the system isn't played that efficiently at the moment uh that's just simply not the case um but in general more than that uh the result is that it issues too much soil so there is a more efficient model independent of how efficient the people that are playing beanstalk work um when when you consider you know and candidly this is something that we've gotten better at as we've watched beanstalk grown had more data to start to understand where are the finer points to tweak the model and refine the model but when you consider that ultimately the name of the game is when the price is below a dollar um to attract enough demand uh for beans to bring the price back up to one as quickly as possible uh in reality having that much soil is probably you know that almost acts to dissuade people to buy because if i can wait if i have to if i have 250 000 to buy and sew and if we continue this example but i actually want to sew million beans you know i may be better off waiting a couple hours if i think i can wait which given that the price is below a dollar um you know people may be willing to wait uh the fact that the soil accumulates may create inefficient behavior and so when we consider that the name of the game is to as efficiently as possible attract demand for soil to bring the price back to one um instead switching to which is what bib9 proposes um every season uh only having like the amount of soil for this season is based on the time weighted average excess of beans in the pool i don't know if i've been saying shortage but excess of beans in the pool over the previous season um that and only that amount so if last season there was a 250 000 uh being shortage and then this season there's 125 000 bean shortage like no matter how much soil there was at the end of last season this season there's only going to be 125 000 soil so there is no continuation or carryover effect and therefore if if you want soil you should get it while it's there if that makes sense and we think that this model will both greatly improve the efficiency of the soil market in general and greatly reduce the amount of excess soil that beanstalk is issuing now just for completeness this doesn't actually change how we intend to issue soil when there's excess demand for soil and the price is above one uh which is from bip six and we think a pretty eloquent mechanism but bib six didn't actually change the maximum soil it only changed the minimum soil because bip9 is now changing the maximum soil so this is sort of completing if you will uh the two sides of the soil market that uh you know well well after bitcoin have been adjusted okay got it that's very helpful so is it fair to say that beanstalk is operating most efficiently when the issued soil every season is immediately consumed or sowed into yes exactly okay so any any accumulating soil is basically mispriced debt would that be the right terminology to think about it well well if you assume that like this is where from an economics perspective you would you would look to the weather so when there's excess demand for soil uh that would be an indication that the weather is too high right um so that is why the beanstalk mechanism when trying to figure out whether to raise or lower the weather looks at the t-wop uh the debt level and the change in demand for soil over the previous two seasons so by looking at the change in demand for soil you can measure whether or not the weather the price of the debt should be increased or decreased okay got it very helpful thanks a bunch um i'm just sort of been thinking a little bit about a multi-chain uh compatible uh beanstalk and and so when i think about beanstalk on an l1 like avalanche it seems intuitive to me that as a result of lower gas behavior from from investors in the protocol would be different than investors coming through uh ethereum how do you think about that the different types of behavior that we might see from those different blockchains and how would that difference in behavior affect the protocol as a whole let me know if that doesn't seem clear so it does seem very clear um it's a little bit hard to envision because the current protocol behavior at the moment because of being stuck being in a young state without having any integrations is very limited to basically depositing withdrawing sewing and updating your silo so if anything the most interesting example would be how frequently farmers update their silo and i mean from a behavioral perspective we originally thought the need to update your silo is sort of awful um and it's costly and it's we hate that um but there's any sort of need to maintain your account um to receive the highest rate of interest but on the other hand the fact that people are constantly paying to update their silo is sort of a sunk cost that increases the stickiness of your your silo deposit you don't want to withdraw and burn your stock and seeds that you've now spent hundreds of dollars even claiming um which was unintended but um you know is there so how much of that will be diminished when the fee to update your silo decreases uh probably a lot of it um how much of that is the main reason why people are staying in the silo uh our guess is not too too much of it um it's mainly the benefit of the stock and seeds itself um although the cost obviously helps uh keep people here um beyond that because there's sort of a limit to people's current behavior it's hard to envision how their behavior will change but instead our guess would be that maybe immediately certain other applications become more feasible to integrate beans or stock or seeds um on another chain than on ethereum because of its low cost but um that that is more speculative than fact based and um you know i think it's it's very difficult to speculate about user behavior given that the current options for user behavior are so limited yeah sure and and the one thing that i think about and and like we've said a million times like this is behavioral economics so it's not it's not something you can really predict before you've observed but the one thing i think about is as we're as we're getting closer and closer to a functioning pod marketplace it feels intuitive to me that we'd see a lot more liquidity with users who are trading pods on that marketplace from something like avalanche versus something like ethereum i don't know exactly what the effect of that would be but it feels like that would probably end up being the case yeah that's that's very intuitive actually uh that makes sense to us it certainly seems like high ethereum gas fees kind of have a stifling effect on any smaller transaction that may or may not you know it something that might make sense uh doesn't make as much sense if you have to pay 50 to do it so i certainly see and echo that um thanks eriel and i'm just uh floor is open now for any other questions check the discussion board aki you just bring your epochy i've invited you up ah can you guys hear me yes okay cool so this might be a very basic question um given that i most of my work so far has been in the field as opposed to the silo but i'm wondering uh what the motivation behind uh turning stocks and seas into erc20 tokens is um from my basic understanding i assumed that it was to like help uh people keep their bean deposits locked in long term and i'm wondering if that's like no longer the case if people are able to sell so uh counter-intuitively the ability to sell your stock and seeds uh or do other things with your stocking seeds will greatly increase the stickiness of deposits in the silo the rule that you will have to burn the appropriate stock seeds and stock that has grown from your seeds or a given withdrawal will not change and so if you have lent out or sold uh your stock and seeds you will be unable to withdraw your assets from the silo unless you go out and buy stock and seeds on the market so in effect we anticipate that stock and seeds becoming liquid will greatly increase the stickiness of deposits uh even further uh do do you imagine like the the main use case for buying and selling uh stocks and seeds here are because of like like some sort of derivative like people want to short or go long on them and or is there like some other use case there's stock and seeds are in our opinion great assets to serve as the basis for various derivatives instruments around the beanstalk ecosystem uh because stock and seeds uh have separate uh but you know both have uh interest in the future growth of bean stock if that makes sense so uh in general in general this is our our expectation is that this is going to be a net like a very much a net net positive when it comes to uh user behavior within the silo so uh if you can think about what you can do if you can blend out your stock and seeds um to earn additional interest on top of the interest that you're earning from the silo uh you know with the exception of uh the opportunity cost of the missed interest when your loan is actually lent out um you know that's the beginnings of a more sophisticated financial ecosystem built around beanstalk um so stock and seeds becoming liquid is the first step in that direction of like a beanstalk economy uh being built as a whole yeah that makes sense thank you i kind of imagine like if you went if you went to om and you uh deposited your um your your own in there so you have steak dome i'm aki i'm not sure if you have home or not but if you later could withdraw that and then take it over to like rari and put it in in there like the fact that you can take your your rap staked ohm outside of ohm allows for other opportunities like going from three three to nine nine right and so this would be like that but with a lot of other options um right yeah that makes sense to me i i also imagine there are a lot of applications where these like serve as some sort of base unit for like applications being built on top of beanstalk as well so yeah it's all very interesting makes sense austin i have what's uh probably an easy one someone in the i promised one in the general channel in the community i'd ask for them but um when it comes to fundraising instead of sewing uh we were curious uh basically at no point are you interacting with beans is that right it's effectively like sowing your usdc and you just get pods just as you would with beans but it doesn't affect the price of being in any way correct okay great thanks you know the we could have made it so that you could go from eath to usdc to so as well but we you know that in short that was just a complexity that we didn't include um and the you know the joke is the trail of bitcoin got funded immediately but then amnesia didn't because it was like price was going right below a dollar right as the audits were coming available for funding which was unfortunate um and so the original idea had been then there's an arbitrage opportunity where because you can sell one one bean worth get one bean worth of pods per usdc when the price of one bean is above a dollar it's cheaper to snow you know usdc so if you want to sell in bulk it's going to be cheaper to do the ustc even right now maybe not right now at 98.8 but for the most part around a dollar it is the case and the fundraiser is getting full but it has been a little slow and you know i think omnisha is getting a little bit frustrated so hopefully in the next couple days it gets it gets filled agreed um i had a quick question how would the um how would it affect the whole ecosystem if um know that if if the price of eth goes you know say the price of eat doubles and say the eat the price of eat gets cut in half how would you envision things um you know how would that affect being um well this is another reason why the b3 curve pool is important right now the beam price is almost entirely correlated to the ethereum price [Music] whereas uh once there's a b3 curve pool that will no longer be the case um so in the short term uh if the price is cut in half the bean price would be cut in half um like if that if the if the price of each dropped 50 in a second so would the bean price um our expectation would be that there would be significant demand for beans below a dollar uh specifically significantly below a dollar and so we're unsure of where the bean price would sort of settle um you know days like today where heath is down pretty bad but beans held in there more or less um despite having his own native sellers uh is a pretty good indication that there would be some real support for beans at this point especially after bip7 convert um is live um so so not going to make any price predictions on how bean would do in that scenario but uh better than 50 cents um and on the other hand if the price of heat doubled um i think that the converse is probably similarly true that uh the bean price wouldn't double um because we would expect a decent amount of converts on the other end and some cell pressure from the pot harvest and the like um but you would have some significant time above a dollar as well most likely okay yeah that makes sense with what i um what i was envisioning especially yeah with the price of eth i think everyone was probably well not everyone but people were probably watching it and seeing when it dipped and then bean did hold up curiously well you know it seems like that's probably from people opportunistic buyers who were seeing it at 95 cents and they were snatching it up um so yeah that's great okay who else do we have uh hey dumpling i'll ask one more um so there's been some expressed concern on the debt level and pot clearance which is currently around seven and a half years uh publius what would you say to that to kind of ease somebody's uh you know tension about this so the first thing is the seasons to pod clearance is not a great estimate um you know that's not a great answer but uh we were always hesitant to put up estimates like this because of especially in its early days the very cyclical nature of being stuck so even putting up 30-day averages uh or basing the seats into a pot clearance on a 30-day average and if you look at the month price chart uh there hasn't been a lot of time above a dollar so there hasn't been a lot of printing of beans and accordingly there's basically a zero percent uh apy or you know there's still a couple uh there's like a day or i guess a week here uh or less above a dollar that's quickly disappearing so you're going to see the apys decrease further and the seasons to pod clearance go up much much more um but again that's almost inaccurate um in the sense that beanstalk is within its cycles uh most likely at the tail end of a a mini debt cycle here having had the price much lower uh cleared out all of the sellers below a dollar i've been oscillating here more or less above a dollar for the past week or so um with the exception of the past day having a little bit more of a dip down to 99 98 cents um but in general our expectation would be that uh you know pending uh each doesn't crash 50 um or something like that heading into the new year our expectation would be that the month of january we'll probably see some more demand for beans and uh you know the pod line will start to clear again um now that's honestly less substantive uh what's more substantive is the pod line and whether the debt level of being stock is unsustainable um that all is sort of the ultimate question so uh we're not going to speak as to the ultimate question because the beanstalk will have to answer that by paying off all of its debt but we can speak to the fact that beanstalk is actively actively working to improve uh its position there and pay off and deleverage and pay off lots of debt and deleverage so on that on that line um between bip6 um which changed the minimum soil uh and dip 9 which changes the maximum soil or expectation is that the amount of debt being stock is willing to issue uh will will decrease significantly and the efficiency of its debt issuance will increase uh much more and as the price continues to stay at and around a dollar um and more more integrations uh and investment into beans comes in um over the next couple of months uh between the improvements in efficiency and the increase in utility and demand for beans our expectation is that beanstalk is gonna uh start to aggressively de-leverage and once that deleveraging has started to has started to be seen in practice uh we do expect we do expect a larger positive feedback loop to start where the you know there's sort of two levels of proof of concept of the bean model a beanstalk model one is the price uh which you know candidly is doing pretty well um and then the second larger axis is the debt level and so uh our expectation is that the proof of concept on the first axis uh the price over over the next couple of weeks and months uh will hopefully contribute uh to the proof of concept as to the ultimate question thank you uh okay we got mj beans mike can you hear me i can and i i recognize this pfb i think you're previously a1 sir is that right that's correct trying to have a rebrand um going along with the the previous question um as far as as pos go in debt um hopefully like you mentioned publius that every the the protocol do leverages and you know um the pod line comes down but in in in the case where uh the pod line continues to grow is there is there a point where there's a maximum debt that that the protocol would take on and and how does how does that affect um um integration with other protocols if they're looking at you know beanstalk farms and saying listen we want to integrate with you guys but you got a billion dollars worth of debt is there is there a point where we we say that's that's enough so the short answer is no there's no limit to the amount of debt beanstalk will be willing to issue the more substantive question is whether anyone will be willing to lend to beanstalk at a certain debt level right which is the question as to whether it can retain its price which thus far seems to have been answered in the affirmative so the answer to any integration that is concerned is uh you know a the proof is in the pudding on the price side of things that there is demand for the debt um and furthermore you know the hope is that again this is a little bit of chicken in the egg but in the long run [Music] it's one of those things if you had asked us had we intended the price to go as high as four dollars and then as low as 24 cents of course not but now it is like an incredibly important event in the history of beanstalk that people look back on as something that leads to great confidence when the price is down at 80 cents for example and similarly this is likely going to be you know over the next month or two the highest the debt level ever gets and once being stock does deleverage entirely um in the future people look back on this very high level of debt as something that leads them to have great confidence in beanstalk and its ability to attract uh lenders in the future when it has a lower debt level so um a little bit playing with fire in the sense that this is where the model has to be proven um but at the same time the fact that the price is at a dollar uh you know we think beanstalk and the people that are trying to get beans integrated into those protocols have a pretty good answer which is you know the the price is at a dollar so the model is generally working and uh the fact that there is demand for its dead uh you know you can see that based on the way it's working in the market is should be evidence enough that that's not a concern at the moment and um you know where beanstalk is at and i think heading into the new year we can start to we can start to say it um even though i think it's been true for a couple weeks is that beanstalk is the longest living algo coin um i guess you could say ample fourth is the is the exception to that um but in the basis or esd model uh beanstalk is is the longest surviving one to be added at its peg so um there's a lot of different reasons to be excited and to advocate for integrations and uh while it's reasonable for people to ask questions as to whether it's a concern um it's a it is a concern but it's not it's not as it's not a concern that cannot be addressed through um through explanation as to where beanstalk is at as a protocol and we feel like those reasons are very you know very good at this point in time got it thank you so much for the answer uh i have one more for you and that's um you know given the growth of of stable coins in 2021 um maybe both in the absence of beans and with beans where do you see uh stable coins going in 2022 i mean we had what 450 500 growth uh in stable coins in 2021 so i'm just wondering um you know do we see that same kind of growth in 2022 i mean you don't have a crystal ball but i'm just curious what your what your thoughts are on that well i think the big open question will be how much how much demand is there ultimately for non-centralized stable coins and we're excited by the demand for tara um we think that that votes very well for beanstalk but the ultimate question heading into 2022 is which are the in addition to the centralized nature of you know some of the stable coins but which blockchains are going to win uh and which blockchains are going to win adoption in the near future so the hope is for for beanstalk to be a real player in the cross chain stablecoin uh world and uh that's you know when we talk about looking ahead and positioning beanstalk to be flexible uh the hope is to develop a cross-chain solution that allows being stuck to scale to other blockchains in a somewhat modular and simple fashion um going forward so once one or two are done uh adding [Music] adding other blockchains uh will not be so complicated so uh looking ahead to stable coins at large um those are sort of the two main questions right what happens to the centralized stable coins with regulation and how does that play into their continued adoption across d5 uh and c5 even for tradify heading into 2022 um and then alternatively what does the cross chain stable point world start to shape up to b so uh we're very excited about the opportunity beanstalk ahead has ahead of it heading into 2022 but um it remains to be seen uh which which chains specifically will be the the most beneficial to implement but there's obviously some some leaders at the moment like solana and avax got it um well unless there are any last questions we're a little over the hour um probably go ahead and wrap it here anyone else have any last uh questions or publius final thoughts so if no one has anything else um we would just encourage everyone to take a look at a budget proposal we intend to drop uh in the next 24 hours or so and um we encourage everyone to participate in the conversation around that and beyond that thank you everyone for coming and we look forward to answering more questions uh in the discord and in the future okay thanks everyone and uh thursday there is a two meetings for the dow so if you want to come 8 15 eastern and 8 30 eastern have a good night you