- Notes and Questions
- ELI5 differences between Terra and Beanstalk
- How much capital has been committed OTC at the moment?
- Why have a vesting period for recapitalized assets?
- What does Publius think of the “is Beanstalk a stablecoin” question?
- How will users harvest new Bean mints from the NFTs?
- How does the place in line affect redemption of the new Bean mints for NFT holders?
- What happens to Beanstalk if Ethereum miners decide to fork and continue as POW?
- Once established on Ethereum, is there a chain or chains of choice where Beanstalk plans to deploy?
- What if Beanstalk had a reserve of credit, like if people could bid on Soil in advance, such that Beanstalk had a reserve of Beans ready to be Sown?
- Can vesting token holders sell their tokens to others (i.e. sell them to someone willing to wait at a discount vs forfeiting).
- Are the 1/3 of minted Beans issued to NFT holders immediately Siloed or do they need to be claimed and Siloed?
- How does Publius think about change in demand for Beans given current market conditions?
- What is Publius excited to see built after the Unpause?
- Any updates on the audits?
- Can you comment on what a death spiral of the Bean price look like?
- Will generalized convert be available when we restart?
- How is Root different from Anchor?
- Among the Convert functionality, zero-fee DEX, The Farm, the Stalk Gauge system, etc, which did Publius already have in mind before Beanstalk launched?
- When investors shy away, what are common issues they have? Current market or beanstalk mechanics?
- Any progress on determining which stable we will be able to use to buy in, now that the crowd of options seems to be thinning?
Notes and Questions
ELI5 differences between Terra and Beanstalk
- Recorded a whole podcast on The Bean Pod about this! Check it out here:
How much capital has been committed OTC at the moment?
- In the same range as last week, around 20% of the total 77M. Until things are signed and in the door, it’s difficult to comment on it
- There have been a couple different vehicles/entities being formed to take in capital from different investors to participate. But there’s a lot of capital formation happening now that the DAO has approved the BR terms and next steps
Why have a vesting period for recapitalized assets?
- Primary reason is to align people lending to the protocol for the Barn Raise with the pre-exploit participants
- There won’t be any sell pressure until there are new Bean mints
What does Publius think of the “is Beanstalk a stablecoin” question?
- It’s a semantic thing, for example all stablecoins are “algorithmic” to some degree despite the “algostable” term
- At the end of the day Beanstalk is issuing a token designed to be stable over time, although certainly not stable at any given point in term
How will users harvest new Bean mints from the NFTs?
- It will be similar to harvesting Pods like before
How does the place in line affect redemption of the new Bean mints for NFT holders?
- There isn’t any place in line, all NFT holders receive new Bean mints concurrently
What happens to Beanstalk if Ethereum miners decide to fork and continue as POW?
- The main point is whether the source of liquidity that Beans are traded against can be forked
- If there’s a fork then the value of the liquidity could be split but there shouldn’t be a problem necessarily
Once established on Ethereum, is there a chain or chains of choice where Beanstalk plans to deploy?
- Open question as to whether Beanstalk should prioritize ETH L2s, other L1s, etc after a successful Unpause
What if Beanstalk had a reserve of credit, like if people could bid on Soil in advance, such that Beanstalk had a reserve of Beans ready to be Sown?
- It isn’t a good idea — any form of reserves presents another vector of shattered confidence when those reserves are depleted.
Can vesting token holders sell their tokens to others (i.e. sell them to someone willing to wait at a discount vs forfeiting).
- There will be a vesting Bean and vesting LP token, and those will be ERC-20 tokens. Don’t know what liquidity would look like for those tokens at the moment.
Are the 1/3 of minted Beans issued to NFT holders immediately Siloed or do they need to be claimed and Siloed?
- Claimed and Siloed.
How does Publius think about change in demand for Beans given current market conditions?
- Don’t really spend any time thinking about exogenous demand these days given the focus on fundraising at the moment.
- The market still indicates strong demand for good stablecoins—and the market will end up deciding what is good!
What is Publius excited to see built after the Unpause?
- Very excited about what you can build on top of a zero-fee stablecoin—one of which is building a zero-fee DEX!
- Root Finance in particular
Any updates on the audits?
- The Trail of Bits audit will start first week of June
- Halborn audit started last week and have been working with them quite closely
Can you comment on what a death spiral of the Bean price look like?
- This would happen if there was no demand for lending to the protocol
- Beanstalk has 3 primary anti-reflexive mechanisms
- demand for Soil
- the opportunity cost to leaving the Silo
- Convert functionality
Will generalized convert be available when we restart?
- generalized convert will be live but there will only be one pool at launch
How is Root different from Anchor?
- the UST in Anchor was totally subsidized and just collecting dust. Anchor is theoretically structured as a money market, there was effectively no demand to borrow UST.
- Root won’t take on any obligation that it doesn’t already have covered
- The fixed rate will only offered if the protocol has the Beans locked in at the time.
- You can see Safi’s message for more detail: https://discord.com/channels/880413392916054098/880419693800853514/973912953294323722
Among the Convert functionality, zero-fee DEX, The Farm, the Stalk Gauge system, etc, which did Publius already have in mind before Beanstalk launched?
- None of them! This is all a work in progress. The cool stuff you can build on top of Beanstalk is infinite
When investors shy away, what are common issues they have? Current market or beanstalk mechanics?
- Everyone has their own reasons, but in general people either get Beanstalk or don’t. There have been some investors who felt they were late for Terra that are no longer interested, and others who are now more interested than before.
Any progress on determining which stable we will be able to use to buy in, now that the crowd of options seems to be thinning?
- the DAO approved the Snapshot that specified USDC
new folks joining welcome to uh to beanstalk university if you have any questions please drop them in the town hall chat or raise your hand uh we're just gonna we're just gonna dive right in jww asks publius can you explain like i'm five the difference between beanstalk and tara luna so the there's a lot of differences and we recorded an entire podcast on the bean pod to really get in depth on how the models are different but the explain like i'm 5 version is that the primary backer of terra or ust and the stability behind it was demand for luna and the the concept is that luna was protocol native collateral and the only reason for holding luna was speculative value on the future growth of the system and in particular the there's lots of different issues that played out in practice but the fact that the luna token is fungible when the system needed a bit when there was very clearly excess supply and people needed to price the luna token there was a a run for the exits for both ust and luna that was uh i mean it was facilitated for a lot of different reasons but it was exacerbated by the fact that the there was no real reason to buy luna in the short term and that led everyone to front run and sell their luna and that created a death spiral so beanstalk instead of using protocol native collateral doesn't use collateral whatsoever and instead uses credit so in theory what that means is beanstalk tries to borrow assets in particular beans from the market in order to remove beans from the supply anytime the price is too low and in practice whereas something like ust was designed to be stable within a range at all times or at most times and everyone uh or it seemed that most of the people that were using uh the protocol at the time had that expectation beanstalk uh welcomes volatility and recognizes that it cannot maintain the price of it being at a dollar really ever for any period of time and instead merely tries to oscillate the bean price above and below the peg where when the price is too high it can easily mint new beans but when the price is too low instead of backing it with protocol native collateral beanstalk tries to borrow beans and so the credit based model is fundamentally one of whether or not you think the protocol is credit worthy and if we get into what we were commenting on about the luna fungibility a debt in beanstalk is first in first out it's non-fungible and so when when the knife is dropping there is an incentive to catch the knife at some price because you can get in line and you have an expectation that there's a benefit to getting in line before other people whereas if you have a fungible token then the efficient behavior is to wait until the entire market clears and not to price it yourself effectively uh certainly not to be the first mover so there's a lot of different reasons why beanstalk is designed to be uh anti-fragile in these scenarios where it faces a bank run it welcomes bank runs in the sense that it doesn't pretend like it's they're not going to happen and instead it's just designed to minimize the extent of them as much as possible whereas it seems like in practice tara was unable to sustain or withstand any any bankrupt really of any any size awesome uh from land how much otc have been confirmed at the moment [Music] the confirmed would probably be in the in the same range of of last week uh around 20 of the the total and again that's more because we don't want to until things are signed and in the door it's very hard to comment on it and that's one of the things we've experienced over the past couple of days there was some stuff that was signed and then when people got uh you know burned out in terror they're like we can't send you the money anymore so there's probably a million dollars that fell out as a result of that or more maybe a little over a million dollars and then there's been some more money that's come in to replenish it so probably in a similar spot but then additionally there have been a couple different uh i think at this point uh vehicles and entities form to potentially take in capital from different investors to participate and we'll see whether any of them raise capital but there's lots of formation happening now that the dow has approved the the terms and the next steps awesome mod asks can you take us through the logic of having a vesting period and what does that mean to the barn rays and to post barn raised participants sure so the vesting period is serves a couple of purposes the main one is that there won't be any beans minted upon relaunch or that can be sold in theory there's no supply unless there is demand for beat and that's a core principle of beanstalk from the beginning whereas if you reinstate beanstalk to its prior state where you have 200 million dollars of liquid assets and 108 million liquid beans or so there's potentially a significant amount of supply and it's very hard for the market to price it so the primary reason is that any un any vesting that happens to the reinstated assets will be in line with demand for beans now the other main reason is to align the people that are lending to the protocol at this point in time with the capital that was liquid prior to the attack such that the lenders don't have a concern that the people that they're lending to will be sold into immediately or they won't be providing exit liquidity if you will so those are the two main benefits or reasons for a vesting structure and in particular the vesting structure that that the barn race has great uh from kobe bean any take on the is beanstalk a stablecoin question that's been discussed recently that is a semantic question which you know it's funny we've always pushed back on the the concept of like the term algo stable coin uh like an algorithmic stable coin i think that's where people get particularly confused every stable coin is an algorithmic stable stablecoin even usdc uh now dye is probably more of an algorithmic stablecoin than usdc is but there's an algorithm for every stablecoin so the concept of algorithmic that's a non-proper description now a stablecoin issuer a stablecoin protocol or stablecoin itself i think it's a pretty good name it's it's an asset that's designed to be pegged to something now different types of stablecoins have fundamentally different things backing them and we we are big fans of the concept of a credit based stable point i think that's very transparent that the backing of the stable coin is credit and it's like what's credit well uh it's the ability for being stuck to attract lenders there's no collateral and uh it's very important and this is one of the benefits of having classes like this for everyone to be on the same page about how being stock works and what it means and what it means to be a credit based stablecoin excuse me and there's there's a lot of uncertainty about what what what is actually possible at this point people are skeptical as to whether you can ever issue a non-collateralized stablecoin and particularly a non-exogenously collateralized stablecoin we would push back against that notion heavily for a variety of different reasons but the the concept is beanstalk is certainly uh issuing a an erc20 that's designed to be stable over periods of time it's not meant to be stable at all periods of time whereas other stable coins are but don't necessarily think that means that beans are not a stable one awesome question from dumpling how will the mechanism work for a user to harvest the bean mints from the barn raise nfts just a button on the website like the idols have perhaps do you anticipate any difference in user behavior due to the smooth rewards instead of the choppy returns of different plots harvesting so two good questions in terms of the u ux uh assume it will be similar to a harvest uh or almost identical likely the in terms of anticipation of change in user behavior because of the smooth nature of the payments the if anything there's something to be said for the likelihood of cell pressure from the distribution of these because it's across a fungible token are more likely to be random as opposed to when you have pods harvesting on a first and first out basis there's less of a random distribution on when the cell pressure happens people tend to wait till the end of their plots or or at least for smaller plots so there is some benefit there now the benefit is is truly marginal you'd have to think i'd have to think really hard about what what the actual benefit to that was but that would be maybe the only difference and you'd expect there to be some some more smoothness in the cell pressure as a result of that but that would be more in theory we'll have to see how it works in practice okay question from from breezy uh how does the timing or position in line in the redemption pile affect the return of the nft when burned the i assume the the question is about the loan itself so how does the timing of the loan i'm sorry i really don't understand the question because there is no position in line in this case so all of the all of the nfts are effectively functional from an economics perspective so there is no place in line and in terms of timing under the the terms that the dow approved there won't be any any any preference and timing other than probably some sort of rarity boost on the nfts or something fun like that cool breezy if you just want to uh clarify that question in town hall chat we can uh we can continue there um i'll move on to bean esquire for now so uh bean esquire asks if and when ethereum finally moves to proof of stake if the ethereum miners decide to fork the protocol as proof of work would we automatically move to the proof of stake chain is it something we should address ahead of time any other risks to us if there's a fork a great question a really fascinating thing to think through and haven't given it too much thought now the main point is the source of the liquidity that beans trade against whether they can be formed and in particular if beans are trading against exclusively ethereum and you have something like eth classic distributed that then has value in theory there's no reason that both beans the beanstalk on both chains wouldn't function now and in particular not even necessarily d-peg assuming both the new eth and the oldies had the same value now there is some risk that if if there's a fork the value between the new ether and the old teeth is split and there's some risk associated with that certainly but the bigger point is that beans trade against or prior to the attack at least and are likely to after after it's restarted trade against collateralized stable points like usdc and usdt and die which is primarily backed by usdc and so in all likelihood all of those stable coins will have to choose a chain and in the world where there's a significant amount of liquidity trading against those assets in the instance of an ethereum fork there will be some loss of economic value on one of the two chains if those assets are are no longer valuable on that chance so lots of different interesting things would to think through in that case it's likely that if there's let's call it an ugly fork or now there's there is a lot of uncertainty and distribution it will have to yeah i think this warrants a lot more discussion frankly the the main benefit of trading against exclusively in this case is then there's no loss of potential liquidity that you're trading against because the eath will just get forked and now you have two different versions of ethereum obviously the dollar value of them may change uh and and also from an oracle perspective if usdc isn't on one of those chains that could affect the ability for the uh the b usdc the oracle structure to work so lots of different complexities associated with the with the potential for as you're describing awesome uh asphy asks is there any difference in ot in the otc deal versus buying the nfcs no sir everyone is is the same awesome and then their next question um actually no they just had trouble accessing okay we'll move on to uh to north once established on ethereum is there chain or chains of choice where beanstalk plans to deploy so the short answer is it's unclear a beanstalk doesn't have any plants it's a protocol piece of software now there are lots of people working on beanstalk that have different thoughts about the best places to continue to build being stuck on and one of the open questions is whether to prioritize ethel 2s or other l1s and at this point it probably seems like prioritizing ethel 2 development is a priority as opposed to l1 development but there's no reason that both can happen in in tandem [Music] but it's just a significant amount of development work and the other thing to add is you look at something like what's happening on solano whether the validators are conspiring to censor certain addresses it's like what is going on here so uh not in a rush to roll being stuck out on any chains that aren't necessarily super super permissionless right okay next question um let's see from disco stu speaking of eth how will eath price moves affect the being eth lp from the 77 million dollar fundraise the short answer is the [Music] the goal of raising the 77 million dollars distributed in u.s dollars is to restore the state of the protocol as it was prior to the attack denominated in usd so therefore the eath drop wouldn't affect the state of being stock now in practice uh the drop beneath price may make it more difficult to raise funds but that would be the only place that it actually has an effect because the concept is the whatever the lp the the pools are whether it's beneath being three curve uh to start the the goal is to have 77 million u.s dollars of value trading against the beans at the time assuming a full recapitalization okay the gill foil asks if we could build up a reserve of credit from those willing to lend to beanstalk do you think that could help make being even more anti-fragile or or are you against reserves of any kind what is a reserve of credit uh they just amended the message to say uh the dynamics for soil could work similar similarly to the initial barn raised auction with an extra expiry date like the pod marketplace uh guilfoyle feel free to clarify what you mean by by reserve of credit here i assume you're referring to people pricing pods in some way like a bidding mechanism okay uh breezy clarified their question let me see if i can if i can uh pull this back together for you but this so the the the short answer is because it's breezy seems to be a little bit confused and thinks that you need to burn the nft so that there's some sort of vesting schedule on the nft the the point is you just hold the nft the nft itself will accrue the beans there's no need to burn the nft at any point there's no vesting schedule on the nft the nft is on the recapitalized assets maybe um kind of expanding on that we could walk through uh yeah just like walk through the the vesting mechanism there briefly or how rather how uh new bean mints are distributed to those nfts so let's say beanstalk increases the bean supply by a hundred thousand beans in a season a third of new bean mints will go towards stockholders a third will go to old pod holders and a third will go to the nft holders those nft holders at any time as they receive betaments can harvest their beans and sell them deposit them in a silo lend them to be in stock if they're soil they're just normal beans at that point the vesting happens on the recapitalized assets so let's say you had a thousand beans in the silo and beanstalk is fully recapitalized you're back to a thousand beans but now they're vesting in the case where the the nfts have had half of the total amount of beans that they will be paid off uh over time have been currently paid so half have been paid back the vesting beans that i have in the silo that are worth a thousand investing beans i'm only entitled to 500 of them it's the concept i'm entitled to have so in short if i claim my beans and i and i uh want to sell them then i'm only entitled to sell half of them and i forfeit my rights to the other half so the the the vesting happens on the recapitalized assets great we're going to bring guilfoyle up on stage here if you'd like to clarify your question i just uh just invited you hey thanks for joining can you hear us yeah right i can't okay great so i just um tried to explain the question again in in town i'll chat the idea was that we could let uh anyone bid on future soil like we were thinking of doing for initially for the barn rays and then lock in those bids based on whether in with an expiry date kind of like the pod marketplace system and in effect then we could build up a reserve of um people who are willing to lend to beanstalk in the future which could a it could just be another their mechanic along with the others you've mentioned to negate the impact of a run on the bank or to make beanstalk more anti-fragile so we're going to be very against any reserve of any kind if you look at the btc reserve that uh tfl had the lfg had excuse me i don't remember which it was um it's very clear that that was a catalyst for the depletion of the of the confidence in the system so whether it's a collateral reserve whether it's a credit reserve as you're calling it the concept is if there's some demand they can add its surface be eroded immediately to cause a loss of faith in the market that should probably be avoided at all costs okay i see i see both sides of it and yeah you could it's not hard to imagine that if you have a small uh a small reserve of credit let's what's what we're calling it then and it gets depleted very quickly then people lose even more faith and any sort of but what's the benefit what's the benefit i would ask the benefit is that you're building up this reserve in a time when sentiment is very positive and you so you're not relying on um creditors when sentiment is low that's that's the benefit so if i'm when if price is over one and things are humming along i i'm willing to say oh i'll i'll lend to beanstalk at any point over the next two months for 200 or 300 percent weather whatever it's at then p falls below one and we don't have to rely on we have these all um this reserve of people who are willing to lend before and their confidence in the protocol is locked in effectively but i i take your point that anything people can point to aside from the price is another potential source of i guess negativity i don't know well it's not just about pointing to the price right you can point to lots of different short-term issues to try to create fear the main point is a substantive change in the state of the system is what you want to avoid and if you introduce a reserve of any kind that presents the opportunity for substantive change in the state of the system so i i don't really it's it's a reserve in some sense but it's also people's it's a sign of confidence that we're watching the whole point that's that's the exactly exactly you don't want to have the sign of confidence be destroyable for a minimal price exactly 100 okay thank you thank you guilfoyle um let's head back to town hall chat uh mod asks can unvested token holders sell their tokens to others um yeah the unvested tokens will likely be a like there will be a a vesting bean token probably and a vesting lp token and those will those will be erc20 tokens so yes don't know exactly what liquidity will be like there yet just thinking through it but don't don't really know right but at a minimum if they're tokens people could theoretically trade them otc or move them around however they see fit correct awesome j dubs ask uh are the one-third of minted beans issued to nft holders immediately siloed or do they need to be claimed and siloed claimed in silence they're like pods in that in that sense awesome all right i've reached the bottom uh feel free to raise your hand or drop a question in chat and i'll send it publius's way well we're in a bit of a of a wall here so uh beanstalk farms is launching something today that we're calling the beanstalk learning center where basically we've taken all of the past recordings for beanstalk university uh amas podcasts pretty much everything we've ever done on a mic and i've published them with timestamps and notes in a in a searchable format i'll drop the link in the town hall chat for you all to check out but if you think this call is good and useful definitely check check those out uh there's an incredible amount of uh content and ideas and and discussion in those uh in that database so definitely definitely take a look got a hand uh from aspect and invite you on stage hello guys it's really good to hear you it's really good to be back in class i just one question that's been kind of on my mind it is that you know we've seen like um obviously sentiment worsen in the last uh couple of days particularly around algos table so when published when you think about demand reduction or like the like i guess i mean is this surely been some i would say fear and demand reduction in it does that factor in in any of the i would say the things that you're currently thinking about or the changes that you're thinking about i just generally looking to hear how you're thinking about the like you know by the changing i guess the changing demand for soil without the bean stock actually running given what we're just seeing around us perhaps it's naive but basically spend no time worrying about exogenous demand other than at the moment while we're capital raising so it's just there's been significant periods of time when there's no demand for soil and being stuck is fine so or has come come out fine from it so just generally not that's not a focus short-term demand is not a focus yeah that that makes sense that that totally makes sense i mean i guess like for me you know the only thing between that i've been kind of mulling over is that you know from the original system that started uh that we saw working like the only tweak is that there's a third player coming in and now there's just you know a third third third of mints getting shared um it's that it's that split that i was i mean but yeah i get your point i think it's uh it's just something we'll just have to turn back on and see actually on that point i would push back because the the concept is that let's assume that the protocol is fully re-capitalized but it it scales because of the haircut if beans if you were lending to beanstalk prior to the attack you were getting in the back of a 700 million pod line with a 100 million bean supply 2 times 700 million is 1.4 billion plus 100 million is 1.5 billion so people were lending to beanstalk at a 1.5 billion supply assuming a full recapitalization where beanstalk issues another 462 million pods are the equivalent of as a fungible asset for non-fungible but economically fungible that would push the lending price to beanstalk at 2 billion don't really feel like that is a substantive change and there's very clearly a significant amount of demand for stable coins good stable points now uh people's lack of demand for bad stable coins we think is great now furthermore uh it's hard to quantify good versus bad stable points but the market is ultimately what decides now the bigger point is one of the big problems that clearly affected tara was having a community that didn't understand the mechanism and was very easy come easy go if you told me the main difference is that the money that's easy come easy go is now not interested in stable coins we would say that is fabulous and the less easy come easy go money that comes into the system the better so not a problem in our minds whatsoever and probably a net benefit now what is the overall demand we're going to guess it's significantly higher than the current implied valuation on the lending side of 2 billion upon restart and that would obviously scale based on the haircut so if it's 50 haircut then it's actually a billion uh if it's a 75 percent haircut it's 500 million so feel like that's not at least in theory we wouldn't expect that to be now maybe the market has really dramatically changed and the thought is the demand for staple coins is a tenth of what it was before but that that seems to be that that would appear to us to be a radical overreaction uh as a result no i agree i agree thank you for that that's really helpful i keep finding myself in a situation where uh obviously i really want to invest i think i will but it's like i've got the whole world telling me dude oh are you crazy it's all falling apart so but this is very helpful to hear from you thank you very much for answering yeah and on that on that point the the hesitance and the questioning and the real uncertainty that's healthy you know nothing is promised nothing is promised and this is an experiment that's the first line in the road map this is this is a real experiment and sometimes experiments go really wrong so the the the hesitance is very healthy appreciate it appreciate it thank you so much awesome thanks espy uh feel free to raise your hand or drop a question in town hall chat um uh still at the bottom of the of the chat there so i'll throw out a question for you publius um you know we've spent a lot of the last you know month or so focused on uh figuring out the you know how to unpause beanstalk and there's been a lot of discussions about the barn rays and other similar things i'm curious what you're excited to see built in the beanstalk ecosystem uh after we unpause i know we you know we uh on the beanstalk farms front released a roadmap with some ideas there for for the remainder of of 2022 and perhaps beyond but yeah curious how sort of what you're looking forward to well one of the things we've always been excited about is the potential for what you can build on top of a zero fee excuse me on top of a positive carry stable coin the coolest of which in our opinion i i jumped the gun there is a zero feedex so some of the some of the the cool things that beanstalk has been able to do is attract liquidity without any exogenous uh incentives or any fees for providing that liquidity purely with protocol native incentives and the thought is that using those protocol native incentives that attract liquidity beanstalk could attract liquidity without needing to charge any trading fees whatsoever and that can drive the trading fees on texas all the way to zero at least for pools that are trading against beans that's really cool root uh is something we remain incredibly excited about the idea of a rate swap uh on top of the positive carry of beans where people can lock in a fixed yield and trade a variable yield that is fascinating as well and our hope is that lots of other cool stuff will be built on top of being stuck in the not-too-distant future awesome thanks for that uh from turboy any updates on the audits or is no word uh is a good word also can you comment on what oh we'll start with then i'll go to the second question okay so the the first is the trail of bits audit we spoke with them last week we're good to go that's supposed to start uh first week of june uh that monday whatever day that is um i think it's the sixth or something and it'll run for three weeks the the hal born audit is underway on that front no news is good news we hope as you were kind of saying uh now we did have a great call with hal born with not the team that's on auditing being stuck but just a different team at halbourne they've been working on this new product called seraf which is like this effectively protocol that they use that's on chain to act as a last gate before certain things are executed at the protocol level so in theory different things like the the with an emergency commit of a bip or a or a the withdrawal of all of the assets all of that would have to be approved by the craft contract and there's a whole process involved there that at some point is probably worth having a larger discussion about with the dow and whether it makes sense to implement but we thought it was very compelling and we're working with them now to figure out how exactly an implementation with beanstalk would work and seems pretty cool so very very exciting that beanstalk is now on the on the minds of very high quality audit firms and we hope that that will put being stuck in a much safer position moving forward awesome uh and then the second question there can you comment on what bean's death spiral would be and has any more thought been put towards avoiding that so the the avoidance of or what what does the death spiral look like first it's that there's no demand for lending to the protocol and in particular that there's no demand for lending to the protocol and the only interest rate that it's able to attract lenders is so high that it's not able to attract the next lender so if it has to pay a million percent interest or weather it's not going to be able to attract a lender after whenever someone lends for a million percent weather so at some point if beanstalk cannot attract lenders then it's that's what the death spiral looks like now has any more thought been put towards avoiding that given the past uh week weeks events that's probably the only thing on our minds it's like an amazing amount of data that's just front and center now that is would be foolish to ignore so lots of thought being put towards that the main the main conclusion is that while there are certain bells and whistles that can be used to further improve the the model in general we do feel like the main the main key is education that users have to be comfortable with volatility and it's very clear that if you have a large ecosystem with sophisticated derivatives on top of it volatility is the nature of the beast you can't have a dip to 97 cents be the death of the protocol it just if that's the case then you're then then what are you doing right so while well the hope is to have very low volatility over most of the periods of time beanstalk is a protocol that welcomes volatility and one of the main thoughts is that education is is first and foremost in addition to a strong model obviously awesome warthog asks will generalize convert be available when we restart and i guess related to that will there be a uni v3 being ethe lp pool available so no v3 uh figuring out how to price those nfts is still pretty hard so no v3 functionality upon restart the generalized convert should be generally live however it's likely that there's only one pools but but it should should support convert and the pipes for generalized convert assuming there are other pools are also laid so generally the answer is yes minty generalized minting and convert should both be available awesome uh from j dubs how is root different from anchor so lots of different things the the biggest one is that the beans excuse me the ust that was an anchor was totally subsidized and basically collecting dust so people were being paid a subsidy to hold ust and even though in theory anchor is structured as a money market where people are exchange borrowing assets from one another there was actually no demand to borrow ust from the market effectively and so all of that ust was was being lent out and then just doing nothing and the rate that people were being paid for lending out that ust was totally artificial and subsidized so the fundamental difference is that anchor had liabilities that were basically infinite they're paying or promising a 20 interest rate in perpetuity on infinite assets and where does that yield come from well it's it's purely subsidized like the ust wasn't doing anything in the protocol so whereas root root has a couple fundamental differences the first is there's no outstanding obligation the protocol will ever take on that it doesn't already have covered so the protocol is denominated in beans and if someone wants to lock in a fixed rate call it ten percent call it twenty percent call it thirty percent over a period of time in order for someone or in this case it's the protocol to take the other side of that fixed rate bet the protocol will only accept the the deposit at a fixed rate if it already has the beans in its reserve unencumbered to to cover the loan and so the recover the deposit however you want to cover call it so if there's an obligation that the protocol has it will have met it at all times and so from an economics perspective there should never be a question as to the sustainability of the yield because it's actually a rate swap and the the fixed rate is effectively guaranteed at the time because the fixed rate will only be offered if the protocol can has the beans locked in at the time now the other thing is as we highlighted the ust and anchor wasn't actually doing anything the beans that are deposited in root for a fixed apy will be in the silo providing liquidity and doing lots of other stuff providing economic value to the system so it's not like it'll be sitting there collecting dust awesome reminder again to uh raise your hand or drop questions and chat uh have run out of questions so we've got about 12 minutes or so before the end of the hour maybe while we're waiting for uh for some people to to throw some questions in publius how are you holding up oh we have nothing to complain about sir that's good to hear [Music] nice uh nice that uh we're getting through all the questions definitely we've got one from rg i think this may have been answered earlier rg but um he asks are we still at 20 soft commitment uh generally yes kobe bean asks any thoughts on changing the season length from an hour well lots of thoughts the you know a day is definitely probably too slow a second is too fast 10 seconds i guess every block whatever you want to call it is too fast so there's always a sweet spot now there'd probably have to be a lot more modeling done on the perfect season time it's likely to change as the state of the system grows so for now an hour is probably good enough but at some point that may change but for now not necessary how would that change as the the system grew well if the system was super efficient you might want a fast first season time right if if the market was really being focused there's no problem with a faster response time per se but you don't want to be too fast it is important that the market has time to settle during each season but an hour might be too long for the market to settle in the case where there's high frequency trading and endless stuff happening on on the system maybe you want every 10 minutes i honestly this is one of the most subjective things about the system and the main the main reason for the hour was just from looking at the behavior of other similar systems and it was clear that esd to eight hours was too long and dsds uh i don't even i don't even know what they were but a lot less maybe it was an hour and that worked a lot better awesome austin asks among the convert functionality zero feed decks the farm the stock gauge system etc which did publius already have in mind before beanstalk launched not the convert functionality not the xero feed decks not the farm not the gauge system so how about that this is all a work in progress this is and this goes to the cool you can build on top of beanstalk is infinite it really is infinite but we hope uh other people are going to come up with some really cool stuff too and root is an example of something that other people came up with that was mr manifold's idea the farm is something someone else came up with that was uh red candle randy's idea uh lots of different ideas from lots of different participants this is all a a soup of uh incredible thoughts from lots of different people awesome ariel asks thoughts on mr morale and the big steppers been bumping it a little bit and you know hendrix got something to say which we always respect we love we love people with something to say and then the sound and production is very high quality so have been enjoying it but ended up uh honestly just ended up bumping to to pimp a butterfly a bunch after after hearing it a couple times got me got me just back on the kendrick five not that it's uh particularly relevant awesome a question from wonton when investors shy away what are the common issues they have the current market or bean stocks mechanics everyone's got infinite issues but at the end of the day people either get it or they don't get it is what it seems and the people that don't get it and we're kind of you know just larping in because they like they like they miss tara if you will those people are out but generally most of the people we're talking about have beanstalk's specific convection awesome from disco stew any progress on determining which stable we will be able to uh to use to buy in now that the crowd of options seems to be thinning i think the dow proposal included ufdc if i'm not mistaken so i think that was what was decided and you know the dow would probably have to vote on anything else being added as far as i know one thing i'll add to that disco stew is that whatever stable uh we do support uh when launching that uh you'll be able to swap from eth into that stable directly from the the interface so uh that'll help kind of make things easy in a single transaction or into transactions in a single transaction hot always gas optimizing here on the phone and ux improvement come on who wants to do two transactions that's right that's right and maybe an approve if you're unlucky yeah i think the approve is the only one we can't do in the same thing well you don't you don't have to because you've got a the point is if you were using usdc like a new erc20 token you'd have to approve it but if you're using ethernet you don't have to approve anything so you could save two transactions awesome uh warthog asks so root will offer a fixed interest rate on deposited beans then invest the beans received into the silo for variable interest so really a hedge against system volatility yes exactly so users can lock in an interest rate and then the system would take the other side of that root protocol i guess in that case would be the system great jams asks what are your thoughts on recent chatter regarding stable coin regulation well there's lots of chatter the short answer is it's very clear after what happened with tara that the the common folk you know this is this is a highly risky thing and a lot of people don't understand that and that's it's very important that there's education for everyone now one of the key pieces of permissionless technology is ultimately that regulation should be permissionless technology should be impervious to regulation so other than being aware that there seems to be a high desire to regulate stable coins in general the the main focus is just to continue to work on a permissionless piece of software that you know should be [Music] should be from a design perspective resistant to any any type of government action of any kind awesome kobe bean asks the the interview question which is 10 years down the line what do you see yourself doing did we lose you can you ask you made my brain go flat um i don't know it's just 10 years such a long period of time you know i'm only 24. so i don't know what i'll be doing in 10 years god willing it's it's related to a positive sum economy built on top of beanstalk you know uh this is we hope this is the future and we want to be a part of it just a small part of it at that point but we hope to we hope to be a part of it awesome uh harry smith asks any updates on exploited funds are there any leads on who copped our money all right so no real leads just you know this nonsense but the maybe the most substantive lead with that would be that the like the lawyers are in touch with the fbi and the fbi is starting to you know to move here so hoping to see a little bit of progress on that front basically and it does seem like at this point the fbi is starting to treat this as a criminal thing so that's that's also cool don't know if that's been confirmed yet but it's you know there's that would be the only real progress to report it's a little bit ambiguous from from from the government to be honest well like it's uh it's it's it's unclear they're they're a little opaque all add also harry uh that i mean a couple of chats with with security firms that are helping investigate this and um there's you know there's there's been some discussion and reporting kind of watching some of these addresses that may be involved so one of those things where when things enter tornado sometimes it's a bit of a waiting game so there are people keeping an eye on it cool we'll go to altimas what happens if the funds are recovered after the bond raise [Music] that'll be a great problem to have but i've given it no thought just don't think it's you know don't think it's likely so good problem to have though if if it happens all right awesome we've got two minutes left um feel free to raise your hand if you'd like to hop on for uh one last question otherwise i'll keep an eye on on chat altimus asks are funds sent through tornado traceable analysis seems to have some tools to trace them yes the black knight asks uh can we expand on which third parties are following up uh to track the funds there's a couple different firms that are working on it uh don't don't know what's allowed to be public though honestly i don't know that i just don't want to speak out of turn but that might be something maybe someone can just post an update or something if that makes sense uh sometime in the next day or so on yeah totally whatever we can comment on yeah one note on that black knight in terms of like a reason to kind of lean on the side of of uh of undersharing there is that you know if certain firms use techniques to track transactions uh and this sort of information were to get get out and be heard by uh by the attacker you know that that could be used against us here so worth keeping that in mind also just not it's not really appropriate to share all this stuff you know it's like a private company doing work like here's their secrets you can't share that all right well we're at the hour um thanks everyone for all the all the questions we typically do these on tuesday so i believe the next one will be a week from tomorrow but we'll keep you posted on that uh in announcements and stuff uh thanks for attending and thanks again publius for for running through all these questions