- What does Beanstalk look like when it is "done"?
- Once the new pod line reaches a certain length, could buying from the farmer's market become competitive with participating in the barn raise?
- Looking at the snapshot vote for Halborn, it says they would begin with audit May 9. would the protocol be restarted on May 9, or are we voting for the audit to be completed before restarting Beanstalk, and how long would that take?
- How are we doing security for the fundraise?
- How does the multisig wallet affect the BIP-voting process going forward?
- Any more info regarding capital? Are you actively looking for capital or just waiting for fundraiser to see?
- Are there discussions to leverage services like Halborn ongoing to address a security presence on the project instead of the pressure of onboarding a security consultant on the team?
- Who, if anyone, would be able to submit and execute arbitrary code to the new beanstalk contract? Are there other protections that exist to make sure funds cannot be arbitrarily moved from the beanstalk pools elsewhere?
- Any major changes we want to make before restarting Beanstalk?
- Would we consider raising the Barn Raise weather or scaling back the weather post-restart to make it more attractive to investors (given that weather pre-exploit was at ~5000%, and Barn Raise weather will be much shorter, so relatively Barn Raise seems like a worse deal)?
- Will outside money understand the limited nature of soil? Will this be true if there's likely a volatile period after the restart? if the pod line is scaled down to be shorter, should the weather scale down with it?
- When will the vote to unpause beanstalk be held?
- How do we plan to rebuild trust?
- Do we ever see partial collateralization becoming integrated into part of the Beanstalk model?
- Should there be a minimum barn funds raised and if it is not met we would rather restart protocol?
- Suggestion: add bug bounty for anyone to recover the funds / catch the exploiter. Incentives white hats
- Suggestion: UI suggestion — When this restarts, there should be a popup for any old holder that says something to the effect of “I understand there is a haircut” to make things clear for people on what they will get
- Suggestion: Implement calculator for the Barn Raise so people can easily see expected returns which can help them come to a buying decision
- Suggestion: Create videos / educational content to explain the Bean jargon (pods, weather, stalk, etc.)
- As old Silo holders go through the vesting period, will their Silo returns be compounded as they wait through the vesting period?
- If someone leaves the Silo early, what happens to the LP they abandoned (given the vesting)
- Any VC conversation updates?
- What is happening with the $250k that went to Ukraine? It’s a great cause but, they don’t want stolen funds.
- How many min signatures are required on multi-sig to sign for contract changes and how many unique individuals are signatories to the wallet?
- There was a Verge article today about Beanstalk that was negative. How are these stories being written?
- What safeguards are being put in place to prevent future attacks to governance?
- Where does the equity value of Beanstalk come from? What’s the value generation function?
- Why 1/3 mint split, why not increase BR split to incentivize BR funding?
- If we're scaled down to a small market cap, say 10M, and then the rocket ship takes off again to 100M and beyond, our dilution in that scenario seems to be severe, and our balance recovery very incomplete. Is there any thought to thresholds beyond which additional pods or beans are awarded to all who have lost funds and liquidity? Clearly a 700M obligation at a tiny market cap seems untenable, but as it grows again, it's ability to repay those obligations becomes more and more doable. Since beanstalk is fundamentally a machine that repays debts when it can, how do we better ensure that in a down barn raise and subsequent growth scenario, that we come closer making the investors whole?
- Announcement: Bankless AMA 3pm ET on their discord
What does Beanstalk look like when it is "done"?
- The model no longer needs any changes, and it will be easy to build on top of and leverage for other protocols
Once the new pod line reaches a certain length, could buying from the farmer's market become competitive with participating in the barn raise?
- In theory, the pods from the new pod line are effectively the same as the old pod line. The pricing in the pod marketplace pre-exploit gives a good signal on how the market would price the new pod line
Looking at the snapshot vote for Halborn, it says they would begin with audit May 9. would the protocol be restarted on May 9, or are we voting for the audit to be completed before restarting Beanstalk, and how long would that take?
- It’s an open question as to whether Beanstalk can restart right after the fundraiser (which ends May 12)
- Halborn quoted audit timing as 8 weeks, so that would go until July. If it can be done faster, they will endeavor to do so
- DAO will vote on both of these audits to decide in the end
- We do tend to be more conservative and want to make sure everything is really good and secure before restarting
- Halborn is a highly reputed smart contract auditing firm and have good experience dealing with protocols post-hack and have made an exception to their normal timing to make time for Beanstalk. They quoted us $250k USDC (which cost the same as Omniscia), so seems like a no brainer to enlist them to audit.
How are we doing security for the fundraise?
- On-chain bidding and participating, but the actual distribution of the pods will be done when Beanstalk resumes
- All of the data for the bidding process will be indexed via subgraph, so there will be on-chain verifiability that everything is happening accurately
- Funds will be custodied by a multisig wallet, which is a very secure process. This multisig will also govern Beanstalk going forward
- No more on-chain governance means we are not opposed to similar attacks
How does the multisig wallet affect the BIP-voting process going forward?
- DAO needs to come to a decision together, but what seems to make sense is using Snapshot to vote and then the multisig executes the will of the DAO as demonstrated by the Snapshot vote
Any more info regarding capital? Are you actively looking for capital or just waiting for fundraiser to see?
- We are doing everything we can to spread awareness to capital, have had plenty of calls
Are there discussions to leverage services like Halborn ongoing to address a security presence on the project instead of the pressure of onboarding a security consultant on the team?
- We should do audits with Halborn and Trail of Bits AND hire full time security team
Who, if anyone, would be able to submit and execute arbitrary code to the new beanstalk contract? Are there other protections that exist to make sure funds cannot be arbitrarily moved from the beanstalk pools elsewhere?
- Only the multisig would be able to move funds
- We will focus on security and work with the audit firms to minimize risk going forward
Any major changes we want to make before restarting Beanstalk?
- This is indeed an opportunity to take a step back and think about it
- From an economics perspective, no real changes needed. The economic model was working great (maybe just minor tweaks like how soil is measured, how weather gets tweaked).
- Only major change will be governance/security. No on-chain governance in the short to medium term.
Would we consider raising the Barn Raise weather or scaling back the weather post-restart to make it more attractive to investors (given that weather pre-exploit was at ~5000%, and Barn Raise weather will be much shorter, so relatively Barn Raise seems like a worse deal)?
- The assumption underlying this question is that there will be soil available after the Barn Raise. Recently, there has been super minimal soil available
- Right before the exploit, everyone wanted to get in but there was no soil available. So those people could not access that high weather.
- Now, for the first time in a long time, soil is effectively abundant due to the Barn raise (76mm soil available)
- It’s also unsustainable for Beanstalk to issue so much debt at a super high weather
Will outside money understand the limited nature of soil? Will this be true if there's likely a volatile period after the restart? if the pod line is scaled down to be shorter, should the weather scale down with it?
- Taking these 3 questions in turn:
- It’s on all of us to spread this awareness on the limited nature of soil
- Not likely that soil will be abundant at restart because it’s not likely that there will be a significant outflow of capital at the beginning because of the nature of the vesting schedule. Without sell pressure / downwards price pressure, soil will not be issued in large quantities (that is how the economic model works)
- Great thought on scaling down weather potentially if pod line is scaled down. We will think on this
When will the vote to unpause beanstalk be held?
- Probably shortly after the fundraiser, no set date
How do we plan to rebuild trust?
- To a large extent this will be a function of time and everyone seeing Beanstalk working over time, becoming Lindy
Do we ever see partial collateralization becoming integrated into part of the Beanstalk model?
- No, we are philosophically against this. The philosophical stance of our economic model is that the market trusts ONLY the credit of Beanstalk
- Introducing collateral leads to rent on the system because collateral restricts supply and custody introduces opportunity cost / carrying cost
Should there be a minimum barn funds raised and if it is not met we would rather restart protocol?
- No reason to have a minimum. We can restart the protocol with 0 fundraise, and any funds raised is better than 0, so no need to have a minimum
Suggestion: add bug bounty for anyone to recover the funds / catch the exploiter. Incentives white hats
- Yes, we are working on this
Suggestion: UI suggestion — When this restarts, there should be a popup for any old holder that says something to the effect of “I understand there is a haircut” to make things clear for people on what they will get
Suggestion: Implement calculator for the Barn Raise so people can easily see expected returns which can help them come to a buying decision
Suggestion: Create videos / educational content to explain the Bean jargon (pods, weather, stalk, etc.)
As old Silo holders go through the vesting period, will their Silo returns be compounded as they wait through the vesting period?
- Yep, compounding will happen. No change to the seigniorage model. Vesting doesn’t affect earning seigniorage
If someone leaves the Silo early, what happens to the LP they abandoned (given the vesting)
- That abandoned LP would be distributed to everyone else
- So it makes sense to stick around
- In this way you can actually recover more if you stay and people leave
Any VC conversation updates?
- We have had a ton of conversations but nothing to share publicly for now
What is happening with the $250k that went to Ukraine? It’s a great cause but, they don’t want stolen funds.
- Still progression, will update community as we progress
How many min signatures are required on multi-sig to sign for contract changes and how many unique individuals are signatories to the wallet?
- Will either be 5/9 or 6/9 required to sign for contract changes
There was a Verge article today about Beanstalk that was negative. How are these stories being written?
- Lot of stories being written without any input from Bean DAO members or contributors
- We are more than happy to talk to media and answer questions
What safeguards are being put in place to prevent future attacks to governance?
- Short answer: On-chain governance removed, Beanstalk will be governed by community controlled multisig. This question has been answered many many times but its very important
Where does the equity value of Beanstalk come from? What’s the value generation function?
- Don’t think there’s a straight parallel to traditional business, but interest is paid when new beans are minted and bean supply increases (which happens when p>1)
Why 1/3 mint split, why not increase BR split to incentivize BR funding?
- The split is arbitrary, we may change pending conversations with new participants in the Barn Raise
If we're scaled down to a small market cap, say 10M, and then the rocket ship takes off again to 100M and beyond, our dilution in that scenario seems to be severe, and our balance recovery very incomplete. Is there any thought to thresholds beyond which additional pods or beans are awarded to all who have lost funds and liquidity? Clearly a 700M obligation at a tiny market cap seems untenable, but as it grows again, it's ability to repay those obligations becomes more and more doable. Since beanstalk is fundamentally a machine that repays debts when it can, how do we better ensure that in a down barn raise and subsequent growth scenario, that we come closer making the investors whole?
- It’s tough, there are tradeoffs everywhere and we just have to come to a consensus on what our approach is
- We think the haircut is a compelling, aggressive incentive for new investors
Announcement: Bankless AMA 3pm ET on their discord
oh hello how's it going publius it's going dumpling it's a friday crazy huh feels like uh i don't even know what day it feels like it's the week has been a blur though that's for sure yeah yeah it's been a busy week that's that's very true how are you dumpling i'm doing good i'm doing good i opened a bottle of wine i'm letting it breathe the next hour and i'm gonna i'm gonna crack into it how about that uh nice nice uh i think uh whoa is there a diamond bean ft in the chat look at that whoa we've got a celeb in town everybody i'm looking for it i'm looking forward got c nice being ft brother there it is there it is wow the diamond too hot um the winter being ft diamond no less all right should we get started time to get started all right everyone so this is a town hall path forward ama so all questions are welcome you can raise your hand you can post them in the classroom chat um and if for some reason you can't you can't talk then leave and come back because sometimes that we have that issue but um yeah i'll uh check the chat here it's gonna say questions below oh my god we have a second diamond bean ft in the chat what is going on tonight the the the diamond hands are here i guess i think there was one that someone had written in so i'm going to start with that one okay it's kind of a long one so bear with me biblius and the rest of the team all we are heading towards at least according to the latest rumors a possibly eye-watering refinance event of beanstalk i have a philosophical question about the envisioned end state of the beanstalk protocol what does beanstalk look like when it is quote done will it ever be done can it be done or is it supposed to be alive growing and mutating or will it go the way of bitcoin and at some point fossilized become a primitive and sink into the d5 bedrock the reason i'm asking is of course now common understanding of the human element as the perpetual source of errors in any system it's a wonderful philosophical question uh from our perspective the goal has always been towards to to have beaten stock trend towards the uh immutable dinosaur-like primitive that it's very hard to change uh the thought behind a 50 stock majority to change a bip you know was that it would be particularly difficult to acquire a 50 majority to make changes as the system develops so at a high level certainly think that the goal would be for the system to become uh less and less changing and in theory less and less changeable over time uh what that timeline might look like is unclear but at a high level would would would say from our perspective you can kind of get to a place where there's things that can be modularly changed like uh like what pool what assets are whitelisted in the silo if that makes sense without uh like changes to the model itself like how the weather is changed so would put the the goal for the final state of beanstalk if you will to be one where uh nothing needs to change at the model level but it's very easy to integrate and interoperate with beanstalk so uh uh that would be probably the place where the rubber meets the road a little bit uh but you know that i think that that does a pretty good job of covering it got it okay once the new pod line reaches a certain length could buying from the farmer's market become competitive participating in the barn rays once the paw the barn pod line becomes well the short answer is in theory the pods in the new pod line are effectively the same uh from a buyer's perspective under the current plan as the pods in the old pod line and so one way to look at it is that there's competition to acquire pods on the pod line uh from the pod marketplace but the other way to look at it is if you look at the pricing of the pods on the part marketplace prior to the attack that may be a good way to reference um how to price pods in the newpod line not sure which direction this this relationship trends if that makes sense but would would probably think that it trends towards pricing the new pod line effectively particularly given that uh wall whenever beanstalk restarts you'll be able to buy uh pods in the marketplace again in theory uh this is really a limited time opportunity to acquire large amounts of pods which you know if you look at the historical data on the pod marketplace as cool as it was there was only something like four million dollars of value exchanged i think um [Music] and in short maybe five i'm looking at the dune dashboard i think now it says five prior to the attack so uh you know this is going to be significantly more volume uh for pods than than has been the case historically for beanstalk so uh unclear how that will trend but uh just based on the size of the pod marketplace don't think it would have too much an effect in a downward in a downward way on demand for for the fundraiser got it yeah i think chiming in coming in clutch 5.5 million um okay from warthog looking at the snapshot looking at the snapshot vote for hellborn it says that they would begin an audit may 9th the protocol be restarted on may 9th or would are we voting for the audit to be completed before restarting beanstalk and how long would that take so it's an open question as to whether upon completion of the fundraiser which won't even end until after may 9th i believe i think it's supposed to end on the 12th uh beanstalk could be restarted after that um the timing of the audits are assuming that there's a hal born audit they originally quoted us eight weeks which would start may 9th and would end very beginning of july we told them we'd prefer it to be a little bit faster than that such that uh hopefully the end of the hal born audit would coincide with the end of the trail of bits audit which is scheduled for three weeks starting june 2nd and so they basically told us you know they're not going to rush the process in any way which we said was fabulous but they're going to let their engineers though that if it can be done by the end of june that would be preferred and so the thought is from our perspective at least you know there should be a dow vote uh on whether to resume being stock prior to the completion of both of those audits or to wait particularly given that at the margin the fundraiser isn't going to be completed until uh you know may 12th under the current plan uh we're talking about at the margin maybe six or seven weeks of additional wait time that is something that dao is ultimately going to have to vote on i think from our perspective given what's transpired we're probably inclined to be much more risk averse and wait for both the trail of bits and the hal born audit to be complete prior to restarting the protocol but ultimately it'll probably be a snapshot vote for the dow to vote on upon completion of the fundraiser okay great and this might be a good time um you know folks can read it i see uh warthog uh did a post to it but if you do you want to just give a brief overview of the um the hub we're in snapshot publius so in short halbourne is a very highly recommended auditing firm a smart contracting auditing firm smart contract auditing firm excuse me and in short they have a pretty good experience dealing with uh protocols post uh hack like thor chain and badger phi and in short they seem totally willing and able to dive right in they made an exception to their normal calendar they said they're booking projects out in july and august and they were willing to make time for beanstalk which is very nice and they quoted us what we thought was very reasonable given the initial audit costs uh 200 000 uh usdc uh you know this seems like a very reasonable quote it's the same amount and in short uh you know from our perspective at this point the more security eyes looking at beanstalk the better so uh to me it's a no-brainer okay uh aj says we're doing this raise on the blockchain right any vulnerabilities there so uh that's actually a great question aj the thought here is to have uh on chain bidding uh and participation but uh the actual ordering and distribution of the pods will be done when beanstalk resumes and the thought currently is to have all of the data from the bidding process indexed via a sub-graph and therefore there will be the on-chain verifiability that everything is happening accurately the convenience of the sub-graph and you know then there's no additional risk of building any of this uh directly on chain on short notice in effect so uh that's the that's the concept and that will also facilitate because there will be a period of time between the end of the fundraiser when beanstalk has resumed any any potential issues although again because of the simple structure of it you wouldn't expect there to be too much complexity uh you know any any any issues could be resolved prior to being stuck actually resuming so i feel like from a risk perspective this is a relatively low risk process now when it comes to custodying the funds uh the funds will be custodied by a multi-sig wallet the in theory it's the same multi-stick wallet that bean stock is going to be custodied by going forward uh which will be a uh i think a nine signature wallet was what was uh decided on uh i think uh in short that's a pretty secure process right the contract will be uh owned by a multi-state and then upon completion of the fundraiser will immediately transfer funds to beanstalk which will uh which is again uh doesn't have any governance fasted now so there's no uh risk of the same attack happening or a similar attack happening at the moment and beanstalk is going to be also governed by uh that community multi-state going forward so that's the thought around security for the fundraise okay great and can you um can you give any details on that um warthog is kind of asking about the the multi-sig and the bip voting process um going forward can you discuss you know any discussions that are happening around that and we're where we are on that front so in short this is something that the dow needs to agree on it's some sort of process going forward but what what what would make sense to me would be to have you know a snapshot for bips uh following the same process or the same rule concept that what beanstalk was following prior uh and in effect you know using snapshot i guess there would be slight changes because snapshot doesn't have the updating of stock over time for example so there would be minor changes to just the accounting at the micro level but the thought would be to have a snapshot be where the governance votes take place for the time being and then the multisig would be responsible for executing the will of the dow as demonstrated on snapshot which is sub-optimal but still pretty decentralized in the grand scheme of things okay any more info regarding capital are you actively looking for capital or just waiting for the fundraiser to see uh can you the the the are you uh actively looking for no i see i see so you know it's very hard to comment on capital because a again we've never once asked anyone for a dollar amount per se uh because anyone can participate uh you know anyone can do whatever they want basically there's no there's no term cheat or safe or anything it's just an interaction with beanstalk but at the same time we're doing everything we can to make sure that people are aware of what's going on and there are lots of capital that's interested in talking to us and asking questions and we've been on plenty of calls so have no sense of what that's going to turn into in terms of participation in the barn raise but yes that's a a focus at the moment okay from our friend the black knight are there discussions to leverage services like halbourne ongoing to address the security presence on the project instead of the pressure of onboarding a security consultant on the team don't think this is an instead of a thing it should be both so the concept is to upon completion of the initial audits from trail of bits and how born have them do continuous audits uh how born seems particularly well suited for it given their structure and flexibility so uh but don't think that precludes beanstalk farms or beanstalk from trying to acquire full-time security people as well okay from ipo and chill who if anyone would be able to submit and execute arbitrary code to the new beanstalk contract there are other protections that exist to make sure that funds cannot be arbitrarily moved from the beanstalk pools elsewhere so there's two things one the multi-sig that owns beanstalk at this point would be the only wallet that could execute arbitrary code on beanstalk and that would require however many signatures are on that contract now the other thing is are there any other protections that exist to make sure funds cannot be arbitrarily moved from the beanstalk pools elsewhere uh there's a lot of thought around how best to uh re-architect beanstalk such that for example different diode assets uh may be totally uh free from the control of beanstalk per se now that does come with additional frictions in the system like with the example of the curve pool we were talking about a couple days ago but in short everything is on the table to try to figure out how to maximally secure the contracts going forward and uh the hope is to chat extensively with the audit firms once they're looking at being stock to figure out how to minimize risk across the board okay great uh casper i think i remember you coming up last night welcome back yeah hey how's it going because okay we can hear you go ahead cool so my question is kind of broader just stepping back a bit like i'm curious if there are any major changes that you would consider before restarting you know hitting the restart button again because in a way you kind of have an edit button here where if there were i guess like parts of the system that weren't necessarily like at least like you know the ones that were most on your mind if there were major fundamental changes that you would make to them would there potentially be like at least a discussion around those changes and like um you know might not be something you can do just in like a bit proposal but now that you have a restart button like are there things that you're considering really appreciate that question casper and and recognize that this is an opportunity for everyone to kind of take a big step back and and think bigger bigger picture is there anything that might might make sense to change at a high level and i think from a smart contract architecture perspective there might be a little bit to be said there because of obviously the weaknesses that existed in the current architecture um but from an economics perspective which is i think where your question was coming from primarily uh in short no um and one of the i don't know if you want to call it a tragedy or maybe it was you know just this is the result of beanstalk and its economic model really being somewhat ironed out to a large extent uh the economics and i would make the argument there's lots of minor tweaks that could be proposed like how the weather changes and how demand for soil is measured could be improved further over time and there's lots of little tweaks that i'm sure over time the the the dow would have gotten around to making on beanstalk as more data came in but at at like a high level felt very very strong about the state of beanstalk and there really wouldn't be anything that at a macro level i'd i'd be voting to change um now it is worth just noting particularly over the past couple of months as beanstalk has really entered the the the point in time where it's worth considering how it compares to all of the other stable coins in earnest uh i think i you know i we've we've really how to speak for myself i've tried to take a real deep look into every every stable coin model that's out there and i haven't looked at all of them obviously like uh the neutrino one that happened last week because like i'd never heard of that one um but the the idea is you look at all of the other major successful stable coin models and i feel i feel like beanstalk has the best one so you know that's not to say that it can't be improved but at a macro level don't think that there are any major structural changes that need to be made in the model think that instead the goal is to just get the model back in a place where it can continue to run limit as much as possible any attack factors for things like this to ever happen again and then over time continue to you know tweak and and uh and prune uh and improve uh you know slowly and steadily but didn't didn't really feel like there was at this point in time anything really crazy that needed to be changed uh like you look at bip9 i would point to i think we would point to bip9 as something really substantive in how the model functions that has had a really profound effect on the system but uh you know in short don't think that there were too many of those changes that needed to be made uh that are really substantive at this point in time it was more like what is convert right generalized convert generalized minting those are all bells and whistles that's not uh substantive changes to the model so uh you know hopefully that that answers your question casper yeah it makes sense i appreciate the uh long-winded answer and i think i think another thing that is like particularly strong about this protocol is like or was the on-chain governance piece like i think that is needed for these sorts of systems oh man me too yeah yeah it's all about tweaking and like experimenting you know a few basis points this way and a few basis points back and like understanding how receptive the market is to those tweaks and then like slowly we can make a cool system the other thing that i would say is like in that respect like there there could be potentially a way where like you still have the on-chain governance piece but then maybe we like redeploy beanstalk on a test net and we can like use emissions to incentivize users to use the test net contracts to like effectively make sure that there's no bugs and maybe like use emissions as a cost for security which is not really something we've seen but given the backup with audits and stuff could make sense so in theory really like that but in practice i think any any on-chain governance going forward cannot be live without an immense amount of auditing and testing uh and while it would certainly be great really great to not have to forfeit the on-chain governance for the time being you know i think that's just a pill we're all gonna have to swallow for better or worse so um but agree with you a hundred percent that in the long run stock needs on-chain governance for sure yeah that's all i got thank you guys oh thanks casper okay we're moving on to hammer's question hi thanks for doing these i have a question about the barn raise and the weather upon restart i believe the the current faq suggests that the bar and ray's weather will go from 20 to roughly 400 over the sale period upon restart weather to the pod line will return to where it was before the exploit which was more like five thousand percent i think all of us want to maximize the barn raised sales but i'm concerned about the possibility of five thousand percent pods to buy even after waiting to see how everything shakes out it can look like a more attractive offer as does buying lp post restart further consider that any down scaling from an incomplete barn raise that pod line would actually be much shorter than it is and might not look significantly longer than the barn raised podline in terms of making the barn raise look like actually a great new deal for investors i want to be clear that this is the best deal that you can get in for beans in the foreseeable future we consider raising the barn raised weather or scaling back the weather post restart to push investment in that direction what a great question um a lot of thoughts here uh the to me it would seem like this concept that it's better to wait to lend to beanstalk until after the barn raiser is complete because you could receive a higher weather is predicated on the concept that there will be soil after the barn raiser and if we look at the state of beanstalk over the past month and a half there hasn't really been any soil available there's been uh the price has been over one and there's been minimal soil available now the main difference in this case is that there's 77 million soil available um in in practice beanstalk cannot issue 77 million pods at a 58x that would not be sustainable so just in practice don't think you can really raise the weather you could raise it slightly to 800 900 but you know it's hard for beanstalk to offer a 20x on 70 million dollars or 77 million dollars that would really increase the the debt level of the system dramatically um and from the perspective of waiting to try to get the 5800 or potentially lowering the weather after the restarts or at the time of the restart to discourage this incentive again i think it goes back to this is predicated on the concept that there will be soil after the reset and because of the structure of the haircut where beanstalk will scale down based on the amount of capital it's able to raise uh the thought is that beanstalk should be in a comparable state to what it was in prior to the attack but in a scaled-down version and so in effect just as there was no soil before the attack would not expect uh there to be much soil after the attack and therefore anyone who's waiting to get a higher weather uh in practice you know think that that's unlikely to be able to happen because it's unlikely that there's going to be a lot of soil at least under the you know the current parameters propose that would be what what would be appeared to be likely so uh you know i think i think that would be it blizz can you expand on why you think that that would be unlikely under the current parameters well in short right prior to the attack beanstalk had a clear supply shortage and there was a lot of minting going on now whenever beanstalk is restarted uh the state of beanstalk will be scaled by the percentage of the foreign fundraiser the barn race that is and so the concept is if beanstalk is only able to recoup fifty percent of the funds in the barn raise uh it will be in the same state it was prior to the attack but scaled down by 50 and so under under the previous state there wasn't a lot of soil available and therefore you wouldn't expect there to be much soil available after the fact either unless there was a major outflow from the system but of course uh all of the liquid assets in the system prior are now subject to this vesting from the pod line so there's even less cell pressure than there was prior if that makes sense yeah yeah it does okay hammer's response i think that's a great point but a will outside money understand the limited nature of soil and b be true if there's uh likely a volatile period after the restart and see the pod line is scaled down to to be shorter should the weather scale down with it so a will outside money understand the limited nature of soil i think that's up to everyone to try to communicate that as best as possible and we can try to do that as well but uh all of the materials that are put around out around the barn razor should probably emphasize that to your point hammer will will that be true if there's likely a volatile period after the restart well no if you had a significant period of time where the price was below a dollar then there would be soil but uh don't think that it's likely that there's going to be a significant outflow in effect because of the structure of the the the barn rates and the vesting schedule it's possible but but it just doesn't it doesn't feel likely based on the the you know price is a function of demand and supply buyers and sellers and the current structures is designed such that they're very limited sellers at the start and and if the pod line is uh go ahead prove this i just was going to say you know there are pretty much no sellers at the start every single circulated every single bean in beanstalk will be replaced likely with a you know locked vesting bean and this includes everything from circulating beans to farmable beans to deposited bees to withdrawn beans and thus you know there will be no unlocked beans with the exception of those in the liquidity pool which will obviously have to be bought to be sold or pods that harvest but if pods harvest that means that the price is above a dollar and funnel beans that are minted to the silo there you go so it's not that there's no cell pressure but it's it's highly limited and to answer c if the pod line is scaled down to be shorter should the weather scale down with it that's actually a very interesting thought i hadn't thought of that to be honest um it's a great it's a very great thought i have to consider that a little bit more okay uh quick one when will the vote to unpause beanstalk be held uh not sure probably sometime after the fundraiser right so after the fundraiser was complete it would make sense for at that point everyone to vote whether to resume or to wait until the audits are complete okay we have a hand i'm gonna bring up id on stage hey say one more thing i couldn't hear that me gonna mute you unmute you say something now can you guys hear me i can now okay great okay perfect um so yeah i've recently done kind of a deep dive into the algorithmic and decentralized stablecoin ecosystem and uh really like the tech of beanstalk and was really sad to kind of see what happened um and it sounds like you guys are going really deep into you know different security measures to make sure it doesn't happen again but there still is that you know question of trust and i was just wondering if you guys were thinking of any other uh initiatives or strategies to kind of rebuild that trust or if you think it's just going to be kind of a function of time yeah i mean i think there's a lot that can be done to demonstrate that you know the people that are working on beanstalk takes security incredibly seriously but uh i'm kind of with you that this is going to be a question of time to a large extent and uh you know there's a lindy effect that needs to take hold which has just been reset to basically zero so um yeah i think a lot of it is probably just time yeah no that makes sense and luckily crypto moves fast um and i think uh a good a project with good fundamentals like this one will will come back pretty quickly um uh the other question that i had was do you see i know there's some issues with a collateral backing just being you know not as capital efficient and also kind of limiting supply growth but do you see any way to integrate a collateral component to the stablecoin and do you see that as a potential integration or are you really kind of staying away from something like that well so it's easy to see a million different ways to make it possible to have some sort of partial collateralization or a treasury or some partial backing but uh would be fervently against it uh you know as an opinion because think that there are two reasons one philosophically the main thing that uh the market is trusting by using beans is the credit of beanstalk think that anything you're hiding behind in terms of oh well there's a little reserve or oh there's an insurance plan or oh there's this you know that the only thing that that can really do although i guess in circumstances like this you may wish you had some sort of cash on the side in reality the only thing that that can do is change the structure of the market if that makes sense such that people can look at beanstalk and say well whatever i previously believed in beans for i no longer believe in them and so therefore you know if it really exposes the protocol to a soros-style attack where it's like you drain the reserves you know now there's a major chance that the market loses total faith in the protocol if that makes sense so at a high level feel like it's much better from an from a like a a behavioral perspective for being stuck to only be dependent on its collab uh not uh its credit its credit if that makes sense right yeah no that was helpful that kind of made me think of that in a different way where collateral is almost not really solving the problem here um so so thanks for that and and that's all i have yeah and the second thing though is anytime you have collateral there is a cost associated with locking up that collateral so there's there's rent inter introduced for that and uh there's no need to introduce inefficiencies to the system uh where sorry where would the rent be um coming from it's well in short if you have to lock up a billion dollars to to create you know as collateral there's opportunity cost associated with locking up that collateral if that makes sense right defense comes in the form of well how would you fund the treasury maybe one percent of all bean mints get sold on the market for ethereum or for three curve or whatever and put in the treasury well that's going to dramatically slow down growth of the protocol right so there's it's a tax in practice on the users and it's incredibly inefficient right custody is kind of the lowest return possible that you could have on on the funds that makes sense exactly got it thank you thank you sir okay aj i'm gonna read your question but it doesn't make a ton of sense to me um do you have any liquidity right now where is that coming from and how is it being paid back yeah i don't understand the question either okay couple of comments i think you skipped ahujet above okay should there be a minimum uh barn funds raised and if not met would we rather restart the protocol so i was thinking about this earlier today if beanstalk raised zero dollars that would be like restarting the protocol so any bonus on top of that is better than restarting the protocol in short so from my perspective there's no reason to put a minimum in there it's like better than nothing nothing would be restarting the protocol so better than nothing is better than nothing yeah i guess that's that's true it's an interesting way of looking at it okay bringing up a martech hi folks can you hear me you can perfect perfect first of all uh many many congratulations this has been a long ride but covered in a short time so really really appreciate everything and thank you for listening to community incorporating some of the suggestions uh that we shared last time uh i think everything looks super we are all primed up uh of course as any other project there will be hiccups so uh i have two parts uh right now one part is suggestions a few suggestions that i observe that might help second part is questions here so i'll probably give a few suggestions first some of them i've shared before on the community discord so please forgive me if it's a repetition yeah first up is bounty right so i know there's a born tea on exploiters uh that if they return they get 10 percent back my suggestion will be also to have bounty on anybody that catches exploiters and helps in recovering the funds that way we can get the entire white hat community crypto tweeter army can you comment on this because i thought we were trying to get that up oh perfect yes i think we were discussing uh 10 10 plus 10 right uh i don't know i don't know i i don't know what you're talking about dumbling but i thought that uh being asking erio we're working on a statement uh to basically say if you recover the funds then you know the ten percent offer extends to white hats as well exactly as ammar texas say i think that they are working on something to that effect now is were you suggesting oh yeah i think someone in the general had suggested a ten percent plus ten percent but i um yeah i think ten percent is fair enough because anyways the amount is quite huge seven eight million and that can get all the best brains in the white hat community crypto twitter to work on that and i understand that all our brains are very busy rebuilding this but i just don't want to drop the ball on this part and don't want to give an easy escape to exploiters right so let's have rest of the army work on that while we work on rebuilding this that was the entire idea yeah uh so i'm happy to discuss this offline and clear the percentages like 10 percent and so on and what's the idea behind it but just wanted to bring this on top of our priority list as well yeah so that's one uh second suggestion and and i think that's uh easy one but that is more to the ux team is when this restarts whenever anybody from the old bean token holder are withdrawing there should be a pop-up saying that i understand that there will be a haircut and only when they click on yes and i understand then only the withdrawal takes place the idea being that there will be a lot of people who have slept on it they'll come back after two three weeks or two three months and then click on withdraw and then they will rage all over twitter that this is dumb i was never told and blah blah blah right so we have to make sure that we manage that aspect as well and do the best we can so it's a very small ux change but it will go a long way in managing that kind of stuff that was the second suggestion uh third suggestion and i'm not sure this is discussed or not uh is related to when we do the fundraising right it will be really good if uh leading up to that or during the bidding process if there is a calculator or a graph on the website where people can just enter parameters and see what return they can expect the entire idea being that it creates fomo when people can start putting in numbers and see how much return they can get and how it works out uh rather than you know just uh one or two parameters like this will be the weather and this will be this because usually when they see the end figure it creates its human nature it creates a little bit more formal so that was third suggestion and please stop me wherever possible or if i'm going too fast yeah and lastly the fourth suggestion is no one should stop you you're on a roll thank you sir i appreciate that uh fourth suggestion is i think a short two three minutes video to explain the simple mechanics of fundraiser return expected to a complete outsider so we all speak the same language right pods soil beans harvesting but a new investor might not speak this language so just uh a simple two three minutes like a white board video will be very helpful for any outsider to see to have that oh gotcha moment that now i understand and now this is what it is this is a very small investment but i think we'll go a long way so these are a few suggestions i had now i'll move to the questions part here uh if that is all right so perfect so questions these are very simple questions but i thought over communication is better than under communication so i'd rather ask and clarify so one is as so for the old lp holders or stock seeds holder right as they're going through their investing period and so on waiting for full hundred percent investing uh will there be like returns compounded to what is stored in the silo as they wait yes so the concept is nothing about the interest profile of being in the silo will change whatsoever uh deposited assets will continue to receive farmable beans and if you farm your farmable beans there you know then you'll earn the seeds from them will start yielding grown stock and so on and so forth there's no change to the senior rich model other than uh under the proposal one-third of bean mints will go to stockholders as opposed to half very good very good and the subsequent follow-up question is that if anybody does let's say exits or withdraws early and gets that haircut does that portion of lp gets redistributed uh to other holders in the silo yes to the other people that are vesting so in effect you will have a benefit for other people uh cashing out early in effect um so there is a high chance that by the time the hundred percent of investing happen uh a holder might have more than his initial deposit also right uh assuming a single person withdraws in advance that would be the case got it got it so there's an incentive for all the old folks to hold because the deposit is growing if anybody exits it adds to their deposit so this is a good mechanics that we want to have it running okay very good and just last question and this is a more simplistic one has any big vc or firm reached out and shown in trust uh and offered to back up or invest heavily in the fundraise as of now uh there's lots of conversations but nothing that i'd feel comfortable talking about if that makes sense people seem interested very good very good okay i'll stop here uh of course i respect that time but thank you so much for having me okay and these suggestions i'll type it out and send over as well just for convenience and ease of reference thank you we're so lucky to have you so lucky to send you a friend request and also i'm going to be following up i just sent a couple of dms out but i'm going to be following up at our stand-up meeting tomorrow to see where um you know what the status is on that uh that bounty that you mentioned thanks a lot really appreciate thank you and keep up the great work i appreciate that okay next uh what is happening with the 250 000 that went to ukraine it's for a great cause but they didn't want the stolen funds it's a great question i'm not so um i'm not up to speed honestly uh i believe silo chad was in touch with them and they seem like they are inclined to try to get us the money back but i'm just not involved in that process yeah i think there were some you know some dms a couple of emails so that's that's something that i think is in progress but we don't have any clarity on it just yet um you know that i've seen either so but we'll give updates on that you know as we have them okay from ipo and chill how many minimum signatures are required on multi-sig sign for contract changes and how many unique individuals are signatories to that wallet lastly is this a digital wallet the the i don't i don't know what the multistreet will end up being you know the thought is either five of nine six of nine or seven of nine six of nine is probably the most reasonable um you know so that would be that would be six individuals of the nine i guess um and i don't really know what you mean by is this a digital wallet versus a hardware wallet uh i i don't understand ipo i'm sorry well like most things like gnosis allow you to use a either a hardware wallet or a or just any ethereum wallet it's dependent on the user but uh okay so from turbo there's an article that came out today from the verge that did not seem like good publicity about the flash loan um in general how was the marketing and media been is this something we're actively reaching out to to get media attention or people reaching out to us or these stories being written without our input so it seems like there's a ton of different coverage uh there's been a lot of outreach uh there's been some coordination and trying to answer some questions from some of the media um but in general haven't been following too much of that um the i think for the most part a lot of the coverage has been reasonable did see that verge article which felt like was a pretty poor characterization of things but uh you know it is what it is and uh you know there's a lot of stories that are being written without you know our input or beanstalk farm's input it would seem yeah i'm not sure i think don't think you invited me up yeah mod i just thought if you wanted to comment at all on on any of the media yeah with media and everyone was reached to us we always welcome them to our discourse we're having one every day and we tell them all to come in and you know they can ask their questions and and have you know have everything out here and open and all of our recordings anyways always you know on spotify we put them on youtube so all of this information is out there uh and and and yeah so all of them have reached out to us we we tell them you know they're welcome they're welcome to ask all of their questions on our classes okay thanks mod uh from bean money oh sorry from thirst cal what safeguards are being put in place to prevent future attacks to governance well this is a question we've answered i feel like a hundred times but i'll i'll answer it again because of how important it is but we'll answer it a little bit uh more succinctly uh the gov on-chain governance has been removed entirely and going forward beanstalk will be governed by a community-controlled multi-sig and so uh that with combined the how board and the audits that are scheduled to start imminently or in the next couple of weeks you know that should uh those are really substantive steps but uh don't want to make it seem like we're not taking it seriously it's just uh you know limited time left in this ama and feel like this this has been answered a couple times yes i will mention that uh this ama is going 60 minutes so we only have uh seven minutes left in it okay i'm gonna bring someone up on stage no no one can hear you dumbling rip all right we're gonna moderate ourselves for a sec maybe mod you can hop back up here and help us out um the two to two okay i'm back i'm back uh stinky bait had a question uh dumpling you want to take it from here or uh sure sure um uh building on hammer's question about scaling down the weather if the prior pod line is scaled down is there even a need to scale down the prior pod line if the goal is to preserve beanstalk's credit history i'm going to trim it there sink i think that's i think that's a good well the short answer is not willing to take a haircut is a very aggressive offer if that's the position that beanstalk wants to take to investors uh agree that fundamentally it doesn't really change the structure of beanstalk at a at a macro perspective but it does dramatically change the value proposition of capital that's participating in the fundraiser particularly the earlier participants so if you're for the first million dollars or the 10th million dollar and you don't know if there's any money coming in behind you the idea that you're now bailing out a 700 million pod line is very unattractive so the haircut is really what makes makes it a an attractive offer independent of how long the pod line is okay and uh phoenix just dm'd me a question hi guys i'm relatively new to beanstalk and doing some work in anticipation of the barn rays so forgive me for asking a basic question uh where does the equity value come from like for example circle generates net interest margin what's the comparable value generation function in beanstalk so don't think there's an exact parallel between a traditional business but um the the interest in the protocol is paid out from being senioric so anytime the bean supply increases uh the the beans are distributed to pod holders and to stockholders and so stock is you know a little bit of a play on words because of how how it does resemble stock and uh stock receives uh interest in the form of bean senior rich when the bean supply increases so republic i was in the design on channel just realized that dumpling isn't able to take on he's back he's back he's back don't worry don't worry much i'm back it was a it was a quick uh airpod switch okay mod always comes to the rescue ladies and gentlemen mod does come to the rescue um why one third mint split why not increase the barn rate split to incentivize barn ray's funding well there's no reason ultimately and as we've said before the one third one third one third split is somewhat arbitrary you can offer additional priority to the barn race pod line but don't necessarily think that you know at the end of the day this is a negotiation between beanstalk and the the creditors that are going to come and lend to the barn raise and think you know it's like well there will be this haircut in the pot line but there will be a one third one third one third split with no additional priority so some stuff is additional and some stuff is you know uh you know it's a give and take if you will okay this might be the last question uh what about incorporating new soil purchases in making investors whole instead of letting bots buy all the soils shave off some of the new beans minted each period and use that to buy pods directly in a segregated account i don't understand yeah i don't understand i'm sorry yeah i really don't understand okay well we can't end on that one we gotta get uh one more question guys chat's going off i guess uh yeah we should mention the uh the bankless ama tomorrow 3 p.m eastern on their on their discord okay uh we could we could uh a hammer is building off of sync's question how about the bar and raise plan works in a incomplete sales situation at a certain point it would feel like much more than a haircut if we're scaled down to a small market cap say 10 million and then the rocket ship takes off again to 100 million and beyond our dilution in that scenario seems to be severe and our balance recovery very incomplete is there any thought to thresholds beyond which additional pods or beans are awarded to all those who have lost funds or liquidity clearly a 700 million dollar obligation at a tiny market cap does seem untenable but as it grows again its ability to repay those obligations becomes more and more doable since beanstalk is fundamentally a machine that repays debts when it can how can we do better to ensure that in a down barn raise and a subsequent growth scenario we come closer to making those investors whole so it's tough right ultimately it's the same question ahuja was asking about priority it's like why not just move the current pod line to a billion in line and say going forward beanstalk is going to start with the new pilot line and whenever it reaches a 2 billion supply it'll start paying off this old pile like there's a million different ways to slice it you know so at the end of the day i think it's just at a high level the dow needs to come to some sort of consensus as to write what are the right trade-offs and how much of a haircut is everyone willing to take i think the haircut is a very compelling aggressive uh offer for beanstalk to be making to potential creditors because again that first creditor or that 10 millionth creditor or the last creditor they should all feel good about you know coming in and providing capital if that makes sense so in short uh there's no there's no particular reason not to do that other than at the margin think you know being unwilling to cut any of the debt is is a very tough bargain to drive yeah that makes that make sense okay well an hour we an hour we said an hour we've spent uh thanks everyone for for coming by there will be that uh bankless ama will also likely do one on sunday uh publishing last thoughts no just want to say thank you everyone for coming thanks dumpling for uh leading us once again and we'll talk again tomorrow everybody