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Beanstalk University Class #18

Date
March 29, 2022
Timestamps
0:00 LUSD Pool Plans • 2:50 Stalk Ownership and Withdrawal Mechanics • 8:15 Impacts of Generalized Minting • 12:10 Silo APY Factors • 14:40 Will Generalized Minting Increase Minting Rate? • 19:45 Theoretical Impact of Generalized Minting without Generalized Convert • 24:35 Small Contract Events - Theories • 27:25 Silo Ownership Theoretical Situations • 33:00 TBIQ Dune Analytics Silo Calculations • 35:15 Stalk and Seed Math (Asfi) • 38:40 Understanding Grown Stalk vs Farmed Stalk • 45:15 Origin of the Bean Metaphor • 48:00 Potential Sower to Silo Ownership Concentration Concerns • 50:00 Outside of Beans, What in DeFi Excites Publius • 51:30 Will there be a Simplified Whitepaper? • 54:40 Gov Stablecoins • 57:40 Quarterly Stalkholders Meeting Announcement • 58:50 Closing Remarks
Type
Beanstalk University

Recordings

Notes

Summary

  • In this edition of Beanstalk A&T, we cover topics like:
    • The generalized Silo and minting
    • Plans for the BEAN:LUSD Pool
    • Stalk mechanism when depositing and withdrawing Beans
    • Silo APY Explained
    • and more...

Q&A

What are our plans with the Bean:LUSD pool?

  • In the immediate future, Beanstalk is trying to attract some LUSD from the LUSD:Stability pool ahead of the halving in their protocol native rewards that is occurring on April 5.
  • Given the halving, we assume there would be a lot of LUSD users looking for new sources of yield.
  • Thus, Beanstalk is seeking to deploying a Bean:LUSD Curve pool and whitelist it for the Silo to offer Beanstalk native awards for LUSD holders to attract them to the Silo to provide liquidity against beans
  • We will propose a BIP to add the Bean:LUSD pool to the Silo in the coming days to make this happen
  • This is an example of Beanstalk creating yield opportunities for other protocols for providing liquidity to Bean and this creates a positive feedback loop where Beanstalk is supporting other protocols and providing liquidity for them while also benefiting Beanstalk

Let’s say I invest $10k in the Silo in Season 5000 and get stalk and seeds. Let’s say I do the same in Season 5001. When I withdraw some portion of the deposited Beans in the future, how does Beanstalk decide which portion of stalk and seeds to burn?

  • Beanstalk is agnostic as to what assets we withdraw. The website UI supports burning the most recent deposits. Other protocols can build on top of this with other burning mechanisms
  • If you had a deposit of $10k and it has accumulated 20k grown stalk, then if you withdrew $1k, you’d burn 2k stalk
    • Yes, this is true assuming no bean seigniorage has been earned
    • If bean seigniorage had been earned, burning would first affect stalk grown from the bean seigniorage before affecting the stalk from your initial $10k deposit
      • FYI: seeds from the new beans from seigniorage don’t yield more grown stalk until you update your Silo

Could Publius explain how generalized minting from Bean:3CRV pool will reduce the necessary volatility to mint beans above peg?

  • The key thing to highlight is this will go live with generalized convert so the market will get even more efficient across pools because generalized convert offers the ability to arbitrage. This will moderate excesses in other pools (like where we see the curve pool having 30k excesses these days), but this could also accelerate minting, but we will need to see.
    • We do expect it to further decrease volatility around the peg
    • It is unclear whether overall minting would go up or down

Can we talk about a bit about what makes the APY% in the Silo move up or down?

  • A few main inputs:
    • Current liquidity in the pool
      • If current liquidity went up 10%, the APY would also go up 10%
    • Beans minted over the time period the APY covers (it shows 30 day)
      • So if the Beans minted over the last 30 days — if it increases 10% in the next 30 days compared to the past 30 days, then the APY would go up 10%

If we had generalized minting on we would have been de leveraging faster. What problems do you foresee if minting logic keeps under estimating actual organic demand?

  • If we have generalized minting, we should also have generalized convert otherwise we will end up where we were pre-BIP 7 when there was too much minting and too much soil issuance.
    • If you had minting without convert, you’d continue to see excess in the Curve pool but the system wouldn’t be able to respond well to it since there would be no arbitrage mechanism to bring the excess down
    • You can see there’s a ton of conversion going on now which is producing a high amount of efficiency
    • While minting without convert would cause excess minting in the short term, it probably wouldn’t be good for stability in the long term
  • The key thing to highlight is generalized minting will go live with generalized convert so the market will get even more efficient across pools because generalized convert offers the ability to arbitrage. This will moderate excesses in other pools (like where we see the curve pool having 30k excesses these days), but this could also accelerate minting, but we will need to see.
    • We do expect it to further decrease volatility around the peg
    • It is unclear whether overall minting would go up or down

There are some really small deposits into the Silo happening (like 4 beans). Why might this be happening?

  • Could be people just depositing to automatically farm grown stalk

Say I have 1% of the stalk supply, which nets me X bean a day. Couple of months pass by, and I now have 0.5% of the stalk supply instead. Would 0.5% of stalk but with larger mints yield a greater yield than 1% of the original stalk, so in relative terms you get less, but in absolute terms you get more?

  • This is hard to say
  • As more people join the Silo, you will get diluted. However, if this is happening, then this means there is more demand for beans, which causes you to be paid out more by more minting
  • We can see by the current recent data that all the new demand for beans has increased the overall APY of being in the Silo, so in this time period the answer would be yes, Silo holders have gotten more despite the dilution from new silo depositors
  • Would love to see people create some models to better forecast the answer to this question!
    • TBIQ will work on this along with other future forecasting analytics
      • TBIQ is getting close to releasing Silo APY calculator

What’s the biggest blocker to beanstalk growth in the next 6 months?

  • Biggest blocker is access — it isn’t easy enough yet to get into Beans and get educated on how it works, the agriculture jargon, etc.
    • So educational materials are really important

When initially designing the system, what brought up the bean metaphor? Were you guys walking one, saw a bean farm, and thought "wow, that's a great metaphor for a stablecoin credit based protocol”

  • There’s actually no good story here, just happened in the moment

If beanstalk enters a massive growth cycle and pays off the whole podline, with the incentives in the silo it’s easy to see many of these harvests going going to the silo. Due to previous soil and weather inefficiencies, could this result in a less than desired amount of centralization which could be considered unhealthy?

  • In theory this is possible but you would have to look at the distribution of the pod line (distribution does look okay right now in terms of not having ultra centralization)

What other areas of crypto excite Publius these days?

  • ZK proofs are super interesting because it’s a missing piece to blockchain based technology really taking off and making things more efficient

The bean whitepaper is very intimidating for people not as steeped in math — can we improve this aspect?

  • The goal of the whitepaper is to be as complete as possible, and so we do need the math to be precise
  • We could create another version of the whitepaper that in more simple language without a lot of the math

Do you think the game-like system of beanstalk and farming metaphors will be a hinderance for when governments and what not evaluate bean? Or will you think the data, the credit, and how bean went back to peg even in crazy situations (like the time bean went to 23 cents) will speak for itself?

  • What does it mean for the government to evaluate Beanstalk?
    • The government once put out this chart which is dumb so it’s hard to evaluate what they will make of any of this
    • image
  • Tomorrow, 3/31 at 8pm ET there will be the quarterly Stalkholders meeting — join to ask any questions and have any questions answered

Transcript

to get us started publius i know there's been um you know a lot of stuff a lot of stuff going on um do you want to talk at all about um the lusd pool and the plans uh that we have with that so on april 5th the liquidy stability rewards stability pool rewards that are native to the liquidy protocol are being at uh there's a yearly having in the rewards and in short uh in theory at least there will be lots of lusd holders looking for alternative sources of yield other than the stability pool after that having and the thought is that the silo particularly if there's an lusd bean pool which just got launched or deployed by beanstalk farms this week um you know whether whether that would basically uh attract or potentially it could attract uh lusd holders into the silo to provide liquidity against beans and so the the general concept is in the next couple of days hopefully sometime after the amnesia audit is published shortly thereafter uh beanstalk farms will propose a bib to add the bean lusd lp token for the curve pool to the what to the silo which would effectively offer silo rewards to lusd holders and in that case that would be a very exciting proof of concept potentially for how the silo really and beanstalk native rewards that are to be holders that are in the silo so if you know if you own beans it's a stable coin but there's positive carry associated with it uh that really does create a positive network effects uh and symbiotic relationships with other protocols and the hope is to demonstrate that uh through the lusdbeam pool but that's the underlying idea behind it and obviously uh there's no guarantee that the pool will be able to attract a lot of uh deposits uh or liquidity but uh you know once there are being stock native rewards uh being rewarded to the pool that will be you know when things potentially get excited if that happens okay i think that's a great kickoff hey we got jadebs right that's good go ahead dale um boobies i've got a question about stock i think uh i thought i understood it my head might be a little confused though um let's say i've got uh season 5000 uh i invest 10k uh into the silo uh let's just say it's going through bean and so it's one one stock two seeds and then in season um five thousand and one i do the same thing and i invest ten thousand um and i get an additional one thousand uh uh sorry then i get additional stock and seeds uh respective of the the ratio that i invested in the same way when i draw down on that in the future given that season 5000 happened prior to the season before um when someone's leaving their position and if they don't remove for example all of their investment like all 20k or something like that um how does how does the protocol pull like how does it decide where to what stock to to take away as i leave the silo does that make sense so beanstalk is agnostic as to what uh what what assets you withdraw and the ui is what enforces efficient withdrawals and so uh one thing that and there's been a little bit of talk of uh recently about protocols building on top of beanstalk one thing that we'd love for beanstalk farms to help develop would be some sort of factory uh to facilitate other smart contracts to efficiently withdraw uh the most efficient withdrawals for that uh contract if that makes sense so in short at the moment uh beanstalk is entirely agnostic it doesn't have the smart contract level a way to support efficient withdrawals but the ui does support for the user uh withdrawing efficiently you know the the most recent deposits so just to be clear then if i so it takes it uh for example if i'm burning if i'm if i am leaving if i'm taking my my my currency out of the silo itself um when i remove it from the silo it's taking the stock from the most recent um i guess investment that i make maybe i i listed the question better for some reason i can't speak correct correct okay so it's if you would if you're withdrawing beans the website will facilitate the withdrawal of the most recent beans if you're withdrawing uh uniswap lp tokens the website will facilitate the withdrawal of the most recent lp deposit if that makes sense perfect that makes sense thank you and to just build on that it also burns any so like when i heard jw's question i wanted to i wanted to make the uh like season 5000 and then season 10 000 for example i wanted to separate them further so that we could see the growth that would happen in between so i guess yeah it is a hard one to to do sort of verbally but i guess that if you had two two different deposits maybe let's say 10 000 at um at an early time and then 10 000 much later all of the all of the extra stuff that's grown on top of that initial deposit i'm sorry let's forget about the second deposit altogether if you have the first deposit of 10 000 and say that that deposit has grown to it started out as as 10 000 stock and it's grown to 20 000 stock then later when i withdraw a thousand it should be roughly two thousand that's two thousand that's if i would withdraw a thousand beans it should be roughly two thousand stock that's burned is that is that correct from that deposit but let's say you that that would only apply if you haven't deposited anything more recently and you haven't received any bean senior rich so let's if if that were the case you're correct if you threw ten percent of your deposit and it had uh you know twenty thousand stock on top of your deposit uh you would you would forfeit ten percent of the stock that's correct but i suppose let's say there was i mean i see what you're saying if there was no bean senior age now if there was say there was the initial deposit was 10 000 and there was 1 000 being senior age the initial now if you withdrew a thousand dollars the website would facilitate the withdrawal of the thousand being senior rich before you dip into your initial withdrawal i think a lot of us have have deposited and have not withdrawn so uh you know it's hard to wrap your head around it sometimes and i think the first thing people think is oh no i don't want to burn which is a very effective mechanism but i don't want to burn i don't want to burn any stock uh and so it's a it's good to know which stock you will be burning some to some extent um so that's that's helpful um okay we have a question uh next question from tb epublius explained how generalized minting from being three curve pool will reduce the necessary volatility to mint beans above pig we'll reduce can you can you just reopen yeah i'll re-read it yeah um how generalized minting from being three curve pool will reduce the necessary volatility to mint beans above peg i think he's saying that bean won't have to go as far above peg in order for more beans to be minted so couple things here one the beauty of having a curved pool with 10 million dollars of liquidity which was hit today uh is that the price doesn't typically go that far above one uh on either unisopra kurfur if it does it's very quickly arbitraged back now there was like a couple hundred thousand excessive beans on the curve pool uh earlier today and yesterday and the price did exceed like one dollar in a cent and so in theory um because beanstalk is only minting from the uniswap pool uh and there's no conversions at the moment between curve and uniswap uh there is uh some friction uh that exists between the prices between the two pools and particularly beanstalk's ability to quickly return the price to to its peg on both pools if you look at the uniswa pool and the price action on the unison pool it has continued to oscillate above and below a dollar it's certainly spent a lot more time above a dollar than below a dollar over the past couple of weeks um and that's largely due to the fact that the curve pool continues to hang out above a dollar and so in practice it's unclear exactly what will happen but if you think about how the pools are related in theory the fact that being struck isn't really able to return the price of the curve pool to one at all and instead is only able to respond to the price of the uniswap hole being above one which it has been consistently because the curve pool has also been above one once beanstalk has the ability to factor in the curve pull into its mending schedule and also there's the ability to convert into the curve point between the curve and unit swap pools in short we would expect both the unit swap and the curve pulse to become much more efficient uh what that looks like exactly is pretty unclear but you'd expect conversions in both pools like right now there's a 94 000 accessing curve but only a 15 000 excess in unit swap if someone were to convert uh on on unit swap there's still a 94 000 xsm curve which is going to keep both pools above one in practice um whereas if there's conversions facilitated for both pools uh anyone could convert and bring both pools back to peg much more quickly so it's unclear how exactly the whole system will respond once you have generalized converts live and how that will affect overall minting at the moment you have some sort of trailing effect in place where the fact that the system can't really respond to curve but the curve excess is causing you to swap to be at an excess and that's causing lots of minting which is causing more people to have demand for the silo is interesting and it's it's unclear whether conversions and minting happening in the curve pool as well will cause an increase or decrease in overall minting as a result that makes sense um we have a couple uh more basic questions that we can we can ask here dem apples uh i love your name uh it's asking can we talk a bit about what makes the apy and the silo move up or down so there are a couple factors and if you're interested in the complete analysis uh there should be a document which you can read on via the silo page if you click on any of the tool tips over the apy you can click on the document and read all of the formal specifications for how this is calculated but in short the the main inputs into the calculation are the liquidity in the pool and the beans that were minted over the time period that the apy covers so this is in fact not sure this is a seven day apy or a 30 this is a 30 day apy list at the moment um the 30 day apy is is a function of the current liquidity in the unit swap pool so if the unit swap will right now increase 10 in liquidity the apy that is displayed would also increase by 10 um now if uh the beans that were minted over the past 720 seasons or or 30 days is that 30 days yeah 30 days um over the past 30 days uh if that increases 10 over the next 30 days compared to the previous 30 days uh that would result in an increase in the apy of 10 as well and so the two factors mainly are effectively that will change the apy from season to season is how is the the amount of liquidity in the uniswell pool changed and how because that's the minting pool uh and then how has the amount of beans that were minted over the previous season compared to the beans that were minted uh 721 seasons ago in short and if the beans that were minted last season are more than the beans that were minted 721 seasons ago you would expect the bean apy to go up if the liquidity is increased you would expect the apy to go up and vice versa if the liquidity goes down you'd expect the apy to go down and if lesbians were minted last season then 721 seasons ago you would expect the apy to go down so those are the factors uh that go into the apy calculation and again if you'd like to read it for yourself it's all linked and available okay um we got a question uh out of osfee thanks zasi uh question if we had generalized minting on we would have been deleveraging faster what problems do you foresee if minting logic keeps underestimating actual organic demand so this is actually a very interesting theoretical problem which is and there's no right answer and we're only going to get to see this play out one way or another which is at the moment you have this really nice feedback loop where there's a constant excess on three curve because the system doesn't respond to the beam three curve pool um which causes the minting on uniswap to be pretty competitive and the silo yields have started to increase pretty decently as has liquidity and the system is now at all-time high liquidity and even on unit swap we're almost at all-time high liquidity just on uniswap things are starting to accelerate and so the question is will the system benefit from having the pool start to mint and curve as well and you look at the sticker price and you're like well right now there's a 94 000 excess in the curve pool and this is one of the reasons why we feel pretty strongly that you want to have minting and convert go live at the same time because if you just have minting but don't have the ability to convert you're kind of back to where beanstalk was before bip7 and that that caused you know there was too much minting of beans and too much minting of soil before bip7 because people couldn't convert and so once you have a minting pool you've got to have convert live in that minting pool as well and so once you have uh at least if you stick with that logic and you say cur minting and convert go live for the pool at the same time in short one would not expect this 100 000 or 200 000 or 300 000 access in the pool that we've seen over the past couple days to last for a long time if that makes sense and to for for people to be able to convert that back to peg it's unclear whether that will cause less minting because now there's this there's there isn't this imbalance in both pools causing the unison pool to basically always be above peg and mitt slowly or will there just be slightly more sporadic minting where when people add to the three curve pool in size which has been happening there's a short period of minting because the two up is above one and the delta b is above one uh and then because it converts it quickly goes back to one so it's very hard to know very hard to know whether apples to apples uh even though dem apples ask the last question it's very hard to know apples to apples whether um whether there will be more minting or less minting or whether this will expedite the deleveraging or slow it down um but the short answer is being stock is in a very healthy position at the moment and the fact that it's somewhat ambiguous as to whether going to generalized minting in general was convert will be better or worse you know makes us not uh you know in a huge rush to push it out uh in the short term uh there's a couple bits that will likely go live before that including the change in demand for soil that was propo you know the draft that was proposed uh about a week ago uh the q2 budget uh the b l usd is silo whitelist bip uh there's a couple things that are in the pipeline before minting and convert but it's still hopefully gonna happen in the next couple weeks okay i appreciate that explanation i think we answered uh twins fans question um ready i think we're up to date guys floor is open ask to speak is disabled i think you have to try to come up on stage jpp get down with jpp oh got it here i see you i'm on jpp go requests it says invite sent here i'm going to allow requests to everyone okay try it again jpb i'm going to dismiss and then you can try again jpp all right in the meantime we have a question from tv what would be the consequence of doing generalized minting but not generalized convert trying to understand the concept better so again this is theoretical uh but the if we go back to what what the case was with being stuck before bip seven when you had convert uh between deposited beans into deposited lp when the price is too high and depos from deposited b lp to deposit beans when the price was below peg um basically there's a major difference between the difference from peg before and after those dip seven was put in place and or implemented and in short therefore it's unclear what it's quite clear based on that um that if you had minting without the convert that you would continue to see this excess in the curve pool but uh the system wouldn't actually be able to respond very well to it and you may say from a short-term perspective well isn't it better to have beanstalk start to mint more and more and more well maybe but in the grand scheme of things one of our favorite charts to look at more recently is the the deposited beans in the silo and if you look at the depositor piece in the silo in fact they're actually starting to decrease pretty quickly and it's like how's that possible there's all these beans being minted to the silo there's not a lot of withdrawals how is it the beans the amount of beans in the silo are decreasing by the millions it was at like 32 30 it was at 33 and a half million at the beginning of march and now it's at just under 31 million so how is it that over the course of march uh the the beans in the silo are decreasing by like seven percent it's because of the convert and all of these excesses in the unisua pool are actually being met with lots of conversions if you follow the beanstalk tracker on telegram or discord you can see that there's a ton of conversions and in fact that is one of the main reasons why there's the close to all-time high liquidity in the unit swap pool that's one of the reasons why the silo apy is increasing and so the the conversions is where both large amounts of stability come from and a high amount of efficiency of converting excess demand into excess liquidity is so important and if you consider right now in both pools we're at almost 25 million dollars of liquidity and then you consider that the beanstalk market cap is only 46 million dollars that's pretty significant in the grand scheme of things and so while having minting in the curve pool without convert would probably cause excess minting in the short term it would probably cause excess minting in a way that in the long run would not be the most beneficial to beanstalk because the there's a nice balance that is very clearly at play uh that has been been the case since bip7 went live where any time you have excess beams above pool above peg people are willing to convert which both reduces the amount of beans that are minted in the short term and returns to the bean price to the peg allowing other people to enter closer to a dollar and simultaneously is increasing the liquidity which again you know is is really important for the system both from an apy perspective uh that just apples to apples having a higher liquidity improves the apy but also obviously having a more deep and robust liquidity for the bean token is really a great proof of concept for beanstalk and so having minting and convert going live together uh such that there will continue to be a large amount of liquidity uh added as there's new demand for beans they go hand in hand um that'll be a really nice way to ensure that there's an elegant uh a consistent slow deleveraging whereas you know you kind of can can print too many beans too quick and then maybe have a period of time below one once once minting goes uh once conversions go live because you minted you know a couple million beans in a day uh because you didn't have convert but you had minting and that might not be optimal in the grand scheme of things so that would be that would be where you know the idea of having minting and convert really go hand in hand publius i have a question of my own uh and then we'll get to brian breen has a great question in the discussion we'll get to that i just the last i've been wondering this for a long time but there's some very small deposits if you look at the contract event spot uh or if you if you ever go to the um uniswap pair and just look at it you know sometimes in the contract events i'll see a really small deposit in the silo like four beans or like one bean less than the cost of gas i was wondering if you had any nope any sort of guesses or um gut feelings as to why that might be the case um and then also a lot of little swaps that might be less than the cost of gas um on the unit swap and i've just always sort of i've always wondered about that and i've never really been able to get a good answer i wondered if you had any ideas yeah i mean we also always try to click on those to see like what is going on there a lot of them it's kind of hard to explain frankly uh some of it it seems like bots that are kind of you know doing weird stuff uh yes it's very hard to explain inefficient behavior uh other than it's very clearly inefficient behavior so uh yeah always interesting to see how uh how the world isn't exactly the most efficient but no real no real hypotheses on why exactly that is other than if you look at the transactions you can see some of them particularly the trades are done by bots um mostly it's it's uh but why they're doing that it's like you know god only knows yeah i could see that kind of it was programmed a certain way and then it um it just yeah it's like uh they made a mistake basically um but it does seem to be happening a decent amount that's why i wonder but you know harm no foul i suppose um okay um now i think breen had a good question here oh look at that publishers commented in the class discussion that the small deposits are sometimes from people who are updating their silo when they have a small amount of farmable beans very interesting the more you know the more you know now is that adding to their gas when they're doing something or is that is that sort of a free transaction anytime you interact with a silo uh your farmable beans are farmed and uh that would be the case so not no extra cost okay so all right that makes a lot of sense hey okay i'm glad i asked um okay breen has a question and i'm just going to ask uh the second part in other words because i think that makes more sense say i have one percent of the stock supply which nets me x beans per day a couple of months passed by and i now have point five percent of the stock supply instead point five percent of the stock but with a larger what with larger mints yield greater than one percent of the original stock so in relative terms you get less but in absolute terms you get more well it depends that's a very basic algebra problem so it just like you know it's like if you have double the minting and half the stock you get half the the percentage of stock you get the same amount of beans yeah i guess to dig more into probably the spirit of their question is is there ever a situation you you could imagine where you'd be um or you are you know would you imagine the dilution i guess to be imagining a consistent amount of beans were being printed i suppose um and well it's hard to say i guess i think that what the spirit of the question is is would you ever be in a worse position by by just waiting by depositing and waiting or with the increased grown stock sort of balance out your dilution um i also understand why it's a hard question to answer got it so the the the way the stock system works is as follows your grown stock is really designed to create an incentive at the individual level for you not to withdraw your assets from the silo because there's an individual opportunity cost for withdrawing and redeposit separately from that um the fact that your stock grows linearly is designed such that the people that deposited first don't have an excess time advantage over the people that deposited later so if i deposit now and receive x stock and wait a couple hundred days and now have 3x stock and today you deposit and receive x stock um and we assume it's the same assets so the same amount of seeds in another you know if if we say the same period of time passes you'll have 3x and and all have 5x and so uh then you'll have 5x and i'll have 7x and so over time those two depositors will even out uh the time the time difference or the benefit for being in time earlier but the individual opportunity cost will increase now there's a whole other axis from this which is as more people join the silo you will get diluted anyone at any point can deposit and anytime there's new deposits in a new stock minted you're getting diluted so in short the real dilution comes from the new members of the silo joining but the thing to realize is the cool thing about new stylers of the members joining the silo that is new demand for beans which also increases the yield if that makes sense so even though in practice you're getting diluted the dilution also pays you out in real time or very shortly thereafter i think what a lot of people and you know in in personal conversations i've had with people too they're trying to weigh how much um like how much dilution how about like how much they're going to benefit from the senior age versus how much the dilution is going to harm them and it's uh you know it i think that people want a better understanding of that but that it's it's hard to it's hard to judge like a lot of these things are affected by how can you just speak a little bit more to that i feel like if we dig in a little bit more we'll get more more clarity for people yeah i mean a lot of it is dependent on the rate of being minting at a given period of time in short now the thing to to i mean maybe if we just look in practice over the past couple of weeks um there has been both an increase in the beans that have been minted because of the new demand for the silo and uh an increase in the liquidity in the pools which has overall led to an increase in the wise over the past month and so in short even if you've been getting diluted you've also been getting paid a higher rate of return so it's the question of how does this play out over longer periods of time is fundamentally related to well how much minting do you receive at given points in time you know relative to when you were diluted and so it's a very very complex problem to actually speculate on uh without doing some more sophisticated modeling and have not have not really spent the time to do that and the last factor would be how many people are coming in [Music] depositing a bunch and then leaving right because those people are that stock is burned correct so uh would love to see some folks start to create some models uh and uh it might be a fun kind of a fun exercise for people to create models and people could then critique them uh hey what's up uh so yeah i just released kind of like the beta of the the silo apy calculator um and i've got some other things on my plate right now that i'm focusing on before kind of like iterating on it again it's currently just historical facing but um i do want to start some more like future facing projections that are very like in line with this kind of fundamental question of like you're interested in looking at both the historical aspect of if i deposited at these points in time with these amounts how much money would i make but looking into the future coming up with like a small easy to understand set of parameters that kind of encode your assumptions about the future growth of beanstalk um and then having the model play out kind of into the future a little bit so that is something i want to get around to yet i haven't thought about it all that much because i'm working on a few different things right now but it's on my radar so if anyone's got ideas for that feel free to throw them my way hell yeah wasn't sure if that was ready for prime time tbx who didn't wanna so i haven't advertised it super well i just posted about it in general once but general's been kind of busy lately so i'm sure it got missed we probably want to get it out into like announcements or just kind of advertise it more broadly because it's definitely it'll be useful but it can definitely get better had a lot of fun with it ctp and mod here so i'm sure you can they'll they'll reach out to you if they have any questions about getting this the word out there cool cool but future like forward-looking stuff with assumptions would be awesome i think that'd be really very exciting and then i think people could kind of project you know with their assumptions kind of see what um yeah awesome yeah yeah i'm excited for it yeah that's it for me okay we've got a little bit more stock and seed um questions uh but this is good really getting into the weeds here um this is from uh philosophy broadly i've struggled with stock and seed math here's what i know deposit 1000 bean it gives me 1 000 stock and 2 000 seeds assuming no minting happens the next season i get two stock right the same for the following season assuming no minting the next because you get 110 000 of a stock for every seed right uh and for the following season assuming no minting i get two more stocks point two more stocks all you have to do oscar is put a put a decimal in front of it um okay from being profit what's the biggest blocker to bean stock growth in the next six months the biggest growth blocker to be the stock it's got to be access that right now there's not easy access to the protocol the website's not the easiest to navigate it's not the cleanest there's not great materials around understanding the protocol so the protocol itself is in a very healthy spot and will hopefully continue to attract new participants in capital and continue to de-leverage but to really talk about major growth you know educational material uh is probably first and foremost no no yes uh i just wanted to double i just wanted to clarify so in um uh i get two point so my balance will be what 2.2 seeds i i still haven't followed the logic on uh you know i so i deposited your balance will then be two point one thousand point two stock oh got it okay so just stop all right right but uh so i i if you can just run through it one more time like i um i deposit a thousand bean uh i get 1000 stock and 2 000 seeds uh one season passes and i get uh two stocks stock i get point two stock and then the following season i get another point two stock or i get more than point two stock you get point two stock every season forever they're right okay got it got it that that's what i was getting at thanks a lot until you withdraw those thousand beans in which case you forfeit all your seeds and all your stuff now if there's a new bean mint and now you receive another 100 beans those hundred beans receive it 100 stock and 200 more seeds at which point you'll start to receive 0.22 stock every season because you now have more seeds if that makes sense yes that part was clear i think it's oh yeah that's clear this one's been a bit hard to wrap my head around but uh i think it's getting there thanks a lot really appreciate it oh publius oh just something to add to that and i guess checking my own understanding of this um isn't it um like grown stock is also yield bearing so as you like acquire more grown stock your stock proportion like increases so won't that like impact the amount of yield you're getting each season so grown stock which is defined on the website as stock that has grown from your seeds um which is different than farmable stock which is stuff that you've received as interest right when you receive those hundred extra beans that's fine your example you receive a hundred extra stock but set the the 2.2 or the 0.22 or the 0.2 stock that's grown stock the grown stock from seeds is not yield bearing until you update your silo and so when you're updating your silo the the main thing that you're doing is actually claiming your grown stock um such that your stock from your seed starts to run interest and similarly if we go back to that example before when you receive 100 bean mint and you receive a hundred beans and two hundred seeds those two hundred seeds are are in practice only start to yield more stock so that your stock every season goes up to point two two from 0.2 after you update your silo because uh this goes back to basically bib 0 and then the unpause that's where these two things come from but so when you update your silo the two assets that you're actually changing the state of uh are your grown stock such that your grown stock starts to earn bean senior ridge and your seeds that you've earned uh from your bean senior ridge which will then start to yield grown stock yeah thanks for clarifying that i think i have a small error in the silo epy calculator because i made a wrong assumption there but that's helpful and this is a perfect example if we go back to being profits question like very clearly you know there's not good enough uh documentation and language for people to learn and understand this easily okay we have a a ui suggestion from jugs um it would be nice if we could input numbers in the ui even when i don't have any token balances to get a quote of sorts so sort of a paper trading idea um it would be kind of interesting um we're not the right people to talk to about this but you know i'm sure the front end and the the ux team are listening to this so sure uh what what i'd always like to know is how many beans i've earned today because i'm always like thinking okay well this and that multiplying it by what i you know my ownership and you know dividing it by two you know i'm always kind of trying to you have time for that dumpling [Laughter] well you know when you wake when you wake up in the morning and you go to the bean bot and you say oh you know it's just fun it's fun to know how much you're making so i think that might be a fun addition um okay i always got time to count my beans it's honest work that is how this work uh it's a philosophy so new seeds only result from new new bean mints received correct well you receive newspapers assets and the stock stock does not yield any seeds that's correct you receive new seeds when you receive beans so this the extra seeds come from when you get your bean seniority so when you get paid more beans you get more stock and more seeds for those beans because those beans are immediately deposited in the silo now it's unique because unlike a normal bean deposit which immediately receives seeds would start yielding grown stock uh the seeds from your new bean cedar ridge don't yield uh don't yield grown stock until you update your silo i just want to chime in again sorry for hogging the stage uh but yeah i think this like whole conversation we've been having last few minutes is uh i really want to like make these concepts clear to the community i think the silo api calculator is like a good place to kind of post some of these definitions so i definitely want to work on like kind of the copywriting and um how i lay out the descriptions of how all these like processes work and hopefully like the graphs will make this very um though the the descriptions combined with the graphs will give people people a better understanding of how these mechanisms work because it's confusing for pretty much everyone regardless of how close you are to it because there's so many things to keep track of be kind of fun if we had the test that went out that we just you know for people who feel like we understand you know a lot of this and then we had a test about all this stuff and see how it that could be kind of fun yeah was someone actually making something like that i feel like i i saw that in a chat somewhere i didn't know if it was a joke or someone was serious about that final exam quarterly exam that'd be amazing there's got to be a mochi test the mochi test is the final boss before you can withdraw your beans from the silo you have to get a certain squad proof of mochi there has to be some sort of role in the discord like i've passed the moshi exam okay there's a lot of support uh support for emoji tests we had a question about the the origin of uh when initially designing the system what brought up the bean metaphor were you guys walking around saw bean farm and thought hey it's a great metaphor for a stable coin credit based protocol well the short answer you know it's funny and we've said something similar previously as people are commenting in the chat so apologies if this is repeat for some there's there's there's no answer we could give to justify where it came from we were writing the white paper and needed something to start to fill in you know to the draft and this is like version you know 100 draft before the one that went live so it's truly like you know crap but we needed a name and it just hit it literally just hit and i was like all right you know we'll still put that in there and use it as a filler and started to then just and it's funny in that moment this is now a little bit just you know just talking here just shooting some um in the moment had like the thought yeah we're gonna have to explain this one day and have no good reason why we went with beanstalk and sure enough over the next couple months as we continue to build out the protocol and think about you know the naming and the verbiage and all the terms in the in the white paper the beanstalk metaphor really worked and there was just lots of every time we needed something there was a term that really lent itself to what how the protocol worked and it all flowed nicely and you know the rest is history okay uh floors open people want to come up uh so you can post in the last discussion okay from one time beanstalk enters a massive growth cycle and pays off the whole pod line with the incentives in the silo it's easy to see many of these harvests going into the silo due to previous soil and weather inefficiencies could this result in a less than desired amount of centralization which could be considered unhealthy uh in theory that is that is possible uh you'd have to look at the distribution of the pod line um and in general it seems like the pod line is pretty spread out there are a couple wallets with like 10 million pods a little bit more than that maybe in a given wallet but that's at the higher end of things and so you know you consider that the protocol will de-leverage you know maybe someone has 10 million pods harvest when we're at uh a hundred million or 150 million pods harvesting total the the bean supply is going to be significant such that that still represents you know a single digit percentage of ownership of the protocol and there's there are a couple wallets that currently own a single digit percent of the protocol so would expect that to not change uh you know so the short answer is in general feel pretty good about the distribution of ownership of the system and and there's obviously the opportunity to buy a huge chunk of beanstalk right you could go out and buy and million beans in theory because now there's so much liquidity and deposit that in the silo and own a chunk of beanstalk but it but in the in the grand scheme of things the ownership of beanstalk is pretty pretty distributed and we'd love to see some you know more analysis of that obviously there's stuff on the june dashboard but would love to see you know some even more analysis on that okay from eriel outside of revolutionizing digital money what areas of crypto d5 excite you these days oh man that's a that's a loaded question uh zero knowledge proofs are honestly where we we get most excited can't really speak in an educated fashion about them but think that that's another thing in the grand scheme of things that it's really a missing piece uh is a missing piece to blockchain based technology and cryptographic uh public and private key cryptographic based uh technology and in short the ability to do a lot of the stuff that currently you can do in a permissionless way but also do it in a zero knowledge environment that's that's game changing uh and then it also has obviously a lot of implications for the efficiency of the chains that support them uh so that's where things are really cool but um don't have too much time these days to to to you know to do as much homework there as we'd like i see brain typing breen i'm counting on you must be tempted the bean white paper numerous instant there are numerous instances defining when a variable is a real number or integer or what decimal level it's at are very intimidating for someone who didn't take math same paper minus the extra mathematical caveats may go a long way in driving adoption curious to hear if others had similar experience or if anyone is working on a simplified translation of the white paper i'm going to guess almost everyone has had a similar experience and that is you know kind of the nature of the beast uh furthermore rigorously defining the variables isn't necessarily something that other protocols do um and so there's also something to be said for well you know why do it at all uh but the goal of the white paper is really to be as complete as possible and to some extent there's some things that are just not in our opinion worth defining in the white paper uh you know like for example how the binomial estimation works for the summarized function call reward like it's not substantive to how the protocol works but want anything that was defined in the white paper to be exactly correct and ultimately there's probably absolutely nothing wrong with having a version of the white paper without that but that doesn't currently exist um would have a little bit of a like a question as to what the best way to display the options between the two would be i don't know who in the right mind would choose the version with the formal definitions basically and so that's one of the reasons why it's like you know kind of bullying everyone to just ignore them as much as possible but you can really just read the white paper without if you just you just skip them [Music] yeah certainly some interesting discussion going on in the class discussion i think that um interesting stuff to think about i know i've seen things explained at like five levels of complexity before there's a some interesting videos about that sort of thing i wonder if we could do the same thing like as simple as possible and then a couple of steps up and then the white paper is the number five um but as far as which one to present you know i think that the ultimate you know quote unquote source of truth needs to be the the full white paper but people have been mentioning the light you know a light paper tv said uh very interesting okay we have uh from breen you think the game-like system of beanstalk and the farming metaphors will be a hindrance for when governments and whatnot evaluate bean what do you think the data the credit and how bean went back to peg even in crazy situations like when the bean went down to 23 cents will speak for itself yeah it's very hard to answer this question frankly because what does it mean for the government to evaluate being stuck it's like well you know there was a report they put out around e-cash because you know now the government wants to do an e-cash solution which this chart that they put out was like well let me see if i can find it's pretty funny hold on we gotta save it so it'll be worth it this awkward silence will be worth it found it uh here it comes look at this we can all have a good laugh about this one so this is how they think about this is how the government is classifying crypto and money at the moment yeah so just after class spend a few minutes looking at this chart and enjoying how the government evaluates cryptocurrency and stable climate so apparently beans are issued by the private sector yeah so within this framework very hard to evaluate what they'll make of any of this i do love breen's uh and just posted the ui and the white paper nice balance i didn't notice the book get you a protocol that can do both yeah that's a great point tb the the government issued is good and private sector is bad exactly i think we have time for one more question if anyone's uh gotten one down or wants to hop on stage for those listening we're just reading off this chart we're not saying the things that are issued by the government are good we uh refrain from any official opinion i'll take this moment to plug the quarterly stockholders meeting uh tomorrow in the town hall at eight p.m so they'll be up tomorrow wednesday at 8pm what time zone ah yes tomorrow wednesday at 8 00 pm eastern time um so there'll be a brief discussion of uh from all the departments about uh you know what's what's going on in q1 what we're looking forward to in q2 and then it'll be open to questions uh from from anyone about uh the state of beanstalk farm sorry beanstalk farms and um and just dow wide questions about uh you know how things are things are looking and then what's on the what's on the docket for q2 and should be a good time had by all that's in the events you can go you can rsvp for it and i'll see you there all right well thanks for coming everyone and uh from the next class next week and you should have rex back and this recording will be uh will be put out uh here i think uh i think this evening so