- Quick Summary
- Announcements and Updates
- With ERC-20 stalk and seeds — can one trade stalk and seeds without consequence to their ability to withdraw the associated Silo Beans?
- Since Beans are minted for BIPs (e.g. Q1 Budget), does it result in bean debasement? If so, is there a limit to how many beans can be minted for BIPs?
- Can Silo Beans be made into a ERC-20 token that could be tradable/liquid?
- “The weather has reached over 5000%, I'm afraid that those new to the protocol may find it unusual and will then be hesitant to participate. Is the protocol overpaying for sown beans?”
- The behavior of BEAN has been good even as ETH has dipped — e.g. Deposited LP and Deposited Beans have not declined, showing the strength of the stalk/seed mechanism. Has the team run into any additional hoops when talking with external parties / potential partnerships due to the recent volatility in the crypto market?
- How do we measure demand once we start selling out of soil? Would $BEAN be willing to takpre-orders for future soil?
- Can you talk about Vader (USDV) and the Vader airdrop and what they want to do with Beanstalk?
- Why did BEAN go up and down $0.1 in a matter of seconds on Coingecko?
- How has the Curve pool affected Bean price?
- When Curve pool is integrated into the Silo, what effect will this have on price stability?
- What might the arbitrage opportunity look like between beans and the Curve pool once the Curve pool is integrated into the Silo (akin to the existing arbitrage opportunity that exists between LP and Beans in the Silo)?
- When the generalized functionality for depositing ERC-20 into the Silo and anything can be deposited into the Silo, can one borrow against Siloed ERC-20 tokens (like beans) via something like Rari and deposit the borrowed Beans back into the Silo (kind of like (9,9) in Ohm)?
- In this edition of Beanstalk A&T, we cover topics like:
- Large near-term updates
- Generalizing the Silo to accept any ERC-20 token
- Improving tax mechanics
- Behavior of BEAN during the recent crypto downturn
- Exploring soil “futures”
- Aphra and VADER airdrop
- and more...
Announcements and Updates
- Pod Marketplace is in the final stages of testing, team is aiming to propose the BIP within a week
- People will be able to buy and sell and list pods, with the ability to specify bid/ask price, quantity, and place in the pod line
- In the near future, a BIP will be proposed to make the Silo become more generalized and be able to accept deposits of any ERC-20 tokens, which will set Beanstalk up to be able to easily integrate other LPs or tokens into the Silo, beginning with the Bean:3CRV LP token, and potentially things like FXS tokens (FRAX) in the future
- This will also allow Bean to set up different incentive structures for different pools by paying out stalk and/or seeds to pools
- Over the next few weeks, everyone should begin to see the fruits of all the labor of the past month
With ERC-20 stalk and seeds — can one trade stalk and seeds without consequence to their ability to withdraw the associated Silo Beans?
- No, you cannot withdraw beans from the silo without burning the associated stalk and seeds, so if you sell your stalk and seeds you will need to acquire back an amount equal to what you would need to burn to be able to withdraw your beans
Since Beans are minted for BIPs (e.g. Q1 Budget), does it result in bean debasement? If so, is there a limit to how many beans can be minted for BIPs?
- There is no limit to how many beans can be minted through a BIP.
- Beanstalk chooses to mint beans for a purpose via BIPs instead of doing it through a treasury because targeted budgets lead to more efficient spending
- Also, if a portion of Bean mints go to the treasury, that would just be introducing a tax on the system, so we don’t want to do that
- In this way, Beanstalk minimizes the dilution to Beanstalk participants
Can Silo Beans be made into a ERC-20 token that could be tradable/liquid?
- The introduction of a Silo Bean ERC-20 token would increase the cost to make a deposit into the Beanstalk ecosystem just because there is an additional asset
- This would also introduce a non-yield bearing asset into Beanstalk and so it would be dead weight which would dilute the value of Stalk and Seeds
- For these reasons, it doesn’t make sense to create a Silo Bean ERC-20 token
- Improving tax mechanics
- Beanstalk already has an improved tax mechanic where beans can go from Field to Silo without touching your wallet, thus avoiding a tax event
- Beanstalk is looking to make this type of mechanism generalizable to all aspects and all assets in the Beanstalk ecosystem (e.g. sell beans for ETH but keep the ETH wrapped in the Bean Farm, so it doesn’t hit your wallet)
“The weather has reached over 5000%, I'm afraid that those new to the protocol may find it unusual and will then be hesitant to participate. Is the protocol overpaying for sown beans?”
- The weather is actually not high enough, because soil is not being eaten up at current weather levels. This means the weather needs to be higher to increase demand for soil
- Beanstalk is unique amongst most crypto protocols in that there is no “I got in too late / only early adopters accrue value” effect, because people who get in later actually are able to access higher weather.
The behavior of BEAN has been good even as ETH has dipped — e.g. Deposited LP and Deposited Beans have not declined, showing the strength of the stalk/seed mechanism. Has the team run into any additional hoops when talking with external parties / potential partnerships due to the recent volatility in the crypto market?
- No — the team has not run into additional hoops
- The team can point to the September pump and dump to show resiliency
- Prospective partners are not worried about the marginal week below peg, there are a ton of other positive indicators to look to
- Most protocols are interested in what’s going on with $BEAN. All other algo stables have died, yet $BEAN survives, which makes protocols interested and wanting to learn more about why $BEAN has been so resilient
How do we measure demand once we start selling out of soil? Would $BEAN be willing to takpre-orders for future soil?
- The goal of soil when price is too low is to remove beans from the supply
- The goal of soil when price is too high is simply to measure demand for soil
- If Beanstalk allows for these “futures”, it would essentially increase the amount of soil that is minted, which is not what you want to do when the price is above 1
Can you talk about Vader (USDV) and the Vader airdrop and what they want to do with Beanstalk?
- Vader and Aphra are two independent protocols. Aphra is the one with the airdrop and is working on a decentralized 3 pool with BEAN, USDV, and FRAX
- Aphra is not Vader. Vader is a burn-to-mint stablecoin on the ETH blockchain. Aphra is using Vader as one of the components of its decentralized 3 pool.
- One should expect to receive the airdrop sometime this week
- Aphra chose Bean because by creating a 3 pool of 3 decentralized algo stablecoins, they can start to aggregate the unique features of each of the 3 stablecoins.
- USDV is burn-to-mint
- FRAX is part-collateralized
- BEAN is credit-based and uncollateralized
- This can lead to a lot of demand for Beans. Here’s one potential scenario
- If BEAN is overweight in a 3pool such that they are trading below peg and there’s an excess of BEANS in the pool, this could cause FRAX and USDV to mint to balance out the pool, which would stabilize the BEAN price. Vice versa if BEAN is underweight (BEAN can mint to balance the other 2)
- Creates reflexive feedback loop for BEAN demand
- Causes long-term capital to come into Beanstalk that is ready to defend its peg via arbitrage (as opposed to transient capital)
- Issuing debt is just one of many ways to stabilize the peg — arbitrage is another big way, and Aphra is the first big play into that
- A decentralized 3 pool that can mint at a faster rate and grow at a more scalable fashion can help solve the supply scaling problem with collateralized stablecoins
Why did BEAN go up and down $0.1 in a matter of seconds on Coingecko?
- Coingecko doesn’t always have accurate information — the Coingecko chart seems to be inaccurate
How has the Curve pool affected Bean price?
- The Curve pool is one of the main reasons the broader crypto meltdown didn’t affect Beans as much, since it’s not directly tied to the price of ETH.
When Curve pool is integrated into the Silo, what effect will this have on price stability?
- It’s tough to say — the thing that will create stability is demand for Beans and demand for the Bean:3CRV pool
- Tough to say whether the Silo incorporation will create that demand, only one way to find out (do it and see)
What might the arbitrage opportunity look like between beans and the Curve pool once the Curve pool is integrated into the Silo (akin to the existing arbitrage opportunity that exists between LP and Beans in the Silo)?
- This convert arbitrage functionality will be a different BIP and is a little more complicated to build out, but it would work similarly to what currently exists between LP and Beans
- At a higher level, Beanstalk is trying to generalize the ability to convert between all assets in the Silo
When the generalized functionality for depositing ERC-20 into the Silo and anything can be deposited into the Silo, can one borrow against Siloed ERC-20 tokens (like beans) via something like Rari and deposit the borrowed Beans back into the Silo (kind of like (9,9) in Ohm)?
- No, this functionality will not be built natively in Beanstalk
- But one of the things on Aphra roadmap after the 3pool is Rari integration to be able to borrow against assets in the 3pool, which will include Bean
- There could be things built around Beans that enable you to do a ton of things with Beans
we're kind of at the point though where there's so many things going on you know we could just talk for an hour which is not the goal of the structure of class so maybe just a couple high-level items the the pod marketplace is in the final stages of testing and cleaning up the website uh and we hope to propose the bib for the pod marketplace within a week or less and that is you know that's a big project uh that the enjoyer who's here has been uh leading uh quite well uh maybe enjoyer do you want to just come up and talk about the the pod marketplace briefly hey can you guys hear me yep hey thanks boys thank you dumpling i i think i spoke about it in a class um a bit ago so i i mean i could give a high level overview again of sort of how it's going to work but before before i dive into that yeah it's been an awesome project to be a part of and i want to thank i mean a bunch of people have come together to help so thank you to cylo chad lawrence austin a bunch of uh team members from the community have have been pitching in so i want to thank everybody and it's really cool to get this as the first like independent uh you know bean project and thanks a lot to publius for all the advising as far as how it's going to work um yeah it's going to make plots listable um and buy offers uh a thing where you can sort of place a ask for amount of pods um that people can sell you their listing so yeah there's two different sides to the marketplace um it's buying and selling pods and so if you have listings you'll be able to sell them and set a price and a place in the pod line where that listing will expire and if you want to buy pods rather than so new ones you'll be able to specify a price that you'll pay and a place in the line that you'll buy up to in an amount that you can buy um so yeah hopefully this will create like an efficient market uh for for the pods for the debt because you'll have both bids and asks going and so you'll be able to see sort of the prices people are evaluating valuing different uh tranches of debt in the deadline so happy to to answer any specifics it's all it's all sort of just getting tested now though so it should be released in in about a week or so um and excited to see that out there and we would just add you know in the spirit of really decentralizing the education process given that b and georgia really did lead the development of the pod marketplace we would encourage any questions to be directed towards them and obviously we're happy to answer as well but you know there's there's real benefit to multiple individuals uh having the ability to contribute to being stuck at this stage already and between being joyer and leo fibb and beasley um who are all working on the back end in various capacities we're feeling very good about the decentralization of the development of beanstalk i also mention mr manifold who's in the audience could pop up if there's questions about beansprout um to being or not to being questions about notes um jww questions about payroll or the notion there's just several people who could answer questions as well as publius which is really exciting it's uh the community is quickly growing and so with that in mind maybe maybe just to complete the high level overview before we yield to questions is in addition to the pod marketplace which we think is just a big step towards a more sophisticated beanstalk ecosystem the the other thing that's in the pipeline in the immediate future is uh we're gonna propose a bit beanstalk farms will propose a bip uh to upgrade the stylo to be more of a generalized version of the silo such that it can support uh deposits of arbitrary erc20 tokens and that will allow us to very easily incorporate the being e3 curve pool into the silo that will be a part of that bip um and then it will also set being stuck up for easily incorporating other liquidity pools or potentially other tokens into the silo as well so that's also in the very near future the exact proposal data you know there's just a lot going on with the pod marketplace deployment as well so when that happens is a little bit up in the air but um that's another major event towards increasing the the state of being stock towards being uh closer to uh being really flexible to you know such that an additional incorporation of an additional pool or another token is really just uh as simple as a dip uh and that's that's what we're working towards in the near future so that's kind of what the pipeline looks like for the next couple weeks and there's some interesting other stuff going on through being sprout around a bean frax pool which may get launched sooner rather than later as well as a decentralized uh three pool with bean fraxed and usdv um and so there's a lot of both of those pools will hopefully also be integrated into the silo through bips but the upgrade to the silo in the dip that we intend to propose shortly will enable that to be done incredibly simply so that's what the that's what the short-term road map looks like and you know maybe with with that as a starting point it's best to yield to questions sure i'd encourage people to um also come to the the dow meetings um on thursday and just to get more involved with the the discord and to ask for access to the notion and just uh if you want to get more involved just reach out to me there's so much going on and plenty of uh plenty of open seats and places for people to fit in and contribute so um okay so we'll open up the florida questions also you can post them uh in the uh in the discussion board uh which you'll see in the same channel so uh ama questions uh austin yeah good question uh just based on what you mentioned earlier what would be an example of a non-lp erc20 token that would make sense to eventually integrate into the silo so an example would be [Music] fxs tokens so if we are able to through frax governance have um have some sort of dividend paid out to the silo right because if you if there's some dividend if it's on curve it may be curve uh you know but there's different forms of incentives that will be paid out to lp providers and if those tokens are deposited in the silo the silo is actually going to be accruing those tokens if that makes sense and so from an accounting perspective we want beanstalk to be incredibly flexible as to how it treats those interest payments or those uh dividend payments where in certain instances you may want the the person who's getting paid those uh those rewards to have them receive additional stock and seeds for those assets or in certain cases you may not so the idea is that um the silo will be totally flexible to support these general uh these general incentive structures and and maybe just to add on to that you know this begs the question well who's in charge of figuring out what the incentives are for each pool and so one thing that we've started to look into is uh upgrading the uh stock and seed allocations for each pool as opposed to being uh hard-coded per se to have something closer to a gauge system uh like what exists on curve and you know this gets a little complicated but to throw a couple things at you the in order to make it work uh you know you may want this is the important thing you may not want to give seeds to certain pools you may want to only give them stock um but then the question is well how do you create a similar incentive from the seeds and so we're gonna also probably have the ability to um without seeds just have pools receive like additional stock but the rule would still remain the same where you have to burn the associated stock rewards when you withdraw the deposit if that makes sense so and i know that's a little confusing i don't think we said it particularly well but the idea here is that there's going to be an abstraction of all of the stock seeds and grown stock where at a pool level uh you may get stock and seeds or you may just get stock and grown stock and the rate at which you receive grown stock or receive stock and feeds is going to be largely up to some sort of gauge vote and the idea there is that um that will allow the ecosystem the most flexibility to support all sorts of different cool protocols that want access to being liquidity but at the same time you don't necessarily want to uh you know for a very short period of time offer high seed rewards for example that are now uh that can come back to bite the ecosystem perhaps so the idea is we want to offer a lot of flexibility such that um depending on the status of the pool you can get different types of rewards um we are working on like a general road map to to lay out a lot of these different ideas um but like if anything this is just an indication that our thought process as to where development is going is sort of entering the next stage of detail at this point in time and these are very interesting questions to address but good problems to address like this is you know the question of how do we make the silo as scalable as humanly possible in a decentralized fashion it's it's a very exciting problem to be working on awesome that was a very helpful example thank you uh jww go ahead yeah so i'm published i was wondering a little bit about i know we talked about um down the road making the stock and seeds the rc20s and i think you just mentioned that again um but i was wondering like if i if someone had or like just me as a case uh example like with erc20s of stock and seeds and i just sell them for some arbitrary amount to some other wallet um is that is that going to be possible where i could just basically sell my stock and seeds to some other wallet again for like one bean or something like that and then keep the other wallet um just with the beans or yeah just for arbitraging basically without then going through the process of of losing and burning my stocking seeds as i as i sell my beans does that make sense so that's not possible uh anytime you withdraw assets from the silo you have to burn the appropriate amount of stock and seeds so that will never change if you sell your stock in order to withdraw your assets from the silo you have to buy stock or receive stock somehow so um if you sell the stock in order to withdraw you'll have to buy it back at some point in the future and this is specifically where the stock and seeds becoming liquid makes the deposited assets even stickier because the vast majority of deposit assets will probably now be broken up into people sell part of their stock or their seeds and now in order to withdraw the asset you actually have to pay uh to buy stock and seeds back so that makes it even less and less attractive to withdraw so does that help yeah i know that helps with the house that's a ton that's really clarifying thank you so then so then if that if that happens like there's gonna be something that we have on the site that says the same way like when you're trying to do transaction right now without enough eth like we're going to have something basically that says either on this side or on metamask like no you need you know x amount more stock uh in order to do that exactly exactly cool thanks okay we have a question from uh on the a the ama question board since beans are minted for bips for example the q1 budget does this result in being debasement if so is there a limit of how many beans can be minted for bips so yes i you know the short answer is anytime you mint the bean supply you're gonna dilute the rest of the bean holders unless you distributed all the beans pro rata based on bean ownership so in this case if you mint two million beans for the q1 budget and keep the beans you know in beanstalk farms and bean sprout the rest of the bean holders have been diluted um now there is no limit to how many beans could be minted through a bip a bib can arbitrarily change beanstalk including minting beans but we would just take this opportunity to highlight why we've decided to go the route of minting beans added you know for a purpose as opposed to something like a treasury so most other protocols have uh a treasury that either is fixed in size uh you know that could be like oh 200 million beans or uh every portion of bean mints could get allocated to a treasury um but both of those instances are sort of sub-optimal from our perspective in the first case you know anytime you have a massive amount of beans minted like that you're probably going to have them pretty inefficiently spent and so apples to apples we think that it's much better to have specific targeted budgets passed where you request beans and say this is how how many beanstalk farms said specifically this is how many beans beanstalk farms needs to operate through the end of the quarter this is what we intend to use them on and then at the end of the quarter if being stock farms isn't doing a good job the dow can decide not to refund whereas now you've got some huge treasury and it's very hard to uh backtrack or correct course when the treasury starts to uh allocate funds in a sub-optimal fashion so that's you know that's the first route that you could take now instead of having a treasury where you know a portion of that all being mints go to the beanstalk farms treasury or something like that or the beanstalk treasury that the dow can then allocate the reason we didn't want to go with that is because that's effectively a tax on the system where now you're just going to have this huge pool of assets that over time is accumulating which sure if the beans are never getting sold what's the difference but at the same time that's an inefficiency introduced into the system and so we'd much rather have a really clean functioning beanstalk and then going back to the first point have specific targeted budgets that require beans to be minted for a specific purpose and we think that in the grand scheme of things that will result in the least amount of dilution to uh being holders if that makes sense so it's there's no there's no right answer and you know to some extent it'd be great to have a 200 million bean treasury like yeah that's a nice big number but in reality that's probably not that's not where uh beanstalk will be made if that makes sense like there's you can't just give away beans and make beanstalk happen and in fact giving away endless beans is probably a good way to make bean stock not happen because one of the core principles of beanstalk is to not mint beans unless there is um demand for them and in the case of a treasury now you're going to have some sort of arbitrary supply that can be sold at basically any time for any reason uh and you know the goal is to have a much more minimized version of that in the form of one-time budgets that are much more specific great thanks for that awesome hey publish i know you had mentioned there were some implement implications to making stock and seed liquid for one being that you would have to consider the cases where sometimes folks want to keep their seats in the beanstalk tracks for the sake of tax efficiency and other scenarios where maybe you want it in your wallet so you can go to balance or wherever the lp is to trade those stock and seeds is there ever a world where silo beans would be liquid i was just kind of curious and why or why not it's a great question silo beans could also become an erc20 token where instead of when you deposit a bean you receive one stock and two seeds you receive one stock two seeds in a silo bean um and it would obviously trade at some discount to a beat um there's no right answer as to whether there should be a cylo being or not how however the silo bean would basically have two effects one is it would result in a an increase in deposit costs um just because there's an additional an additional asset um and so all things being equal you know we're trying to keep transactions cheap uh when interacting with beanstalk and so at the margin the question is well given that there's additional cost to making us to every single deposit to making a silo being uh exists the question that becomes well what's the benefit and on one hand there is a benefit of just having another fungible asset in beanstalk with its own unique like return profile this would be like a non-yield bearing asset so it's kind of just dead weight and the result would be it would have some sort of face value but not be yield bearing and therefore it would just likely from a macro perspective result in a reduction of the overall price of a stock and a seed relative to a bean and given that the hope is that stock and seeds are given that the yield bearing assets they're very attractive to be incorporated into other other protocols why would we want to dilute the value of stock and seeds to create some other asset that is totally useless and we don't have a reasonable expectation that it would be incorporated into other protocols so in the spirit of maximizing the value of stock and seeds and minimizing gas costs um we we don't think that it makes sense to make a silo bean um you know that's an open discussion like if the community really wanted it we're obviously happy to have that have that conversation but um for the reasons we laid out we don't think that it's it's something that is particularly beneficial to be in stock and therefore you know probably inclined to just keep it as stalking seats gotcha yeah it was more of a shower thought than anything else but was curious to your thoughts love shower thoughts and it was a good one yeah um maybe just take this opportunity to also comment because you would mention the complexity around uh the stock and seeds uh and efficiency around taxes um the one of the other projects that the development team is working on is to generalize uh the bean farm so currently if i have harvestable pods for example or with drawn beans that i can claim i can go to and from the field and silo back and forth um without the funds ever hitting your wallet which again we implemented uh upon the recommendation of one of our community members because they suggested for certain people that's more beneficial and so the question is how can we generalize the silo and field where you can go in and out of both the silo and the field on the farm generally or just be wrapped effectively on the farm and so what what we're developing is wrapper functionality similar to how the balancer vault works where you'll be able to have arbitrary assets on the bean farm not even necessarily in the silo or the field without ever um having those assets hit your wallet and so there's going to be this wrapper functionality for stock and seeds and beans that um helps facilitate users to to interact with beanstalk in a really customizable fashion i just want to make sure i followed that properly so in what way is that distinct from like with drawn beans that are claimable or harvestable pods that you can instantly move back and forth so what we're going to do is generalize that to basically include any asset so you could uh sell beans into each but keep the ethereum wrapped on the bean farm oh wow okay buy beans back and keep those beans wrapped or move them to the silo or the field and you can do that with arbitrary assets so you could take your uh literally any asset that has liquidity against bean wrap it on the farm and then use it through beanstalk gotcha you're blowing my mind a little bit that's super exciting we're thinking big here austin okay uh floor is open we also have another question from uh pubis on the ama question board uh he says the weather has reached over 5000 and i'm afraid that those new to the protocol may find it unusual and then we'll be hesitant to participate the protocol overpaying for sown beans so to answer you your specific question the protocol is not overpaying for stone beans because currently it doesn't it's not even attracting demand for soil at the current weather so de facto the weather is not high enough um with regards to i guess not the fact maybe de facto yeah we accept uh to answer the your more general point that people may find it concerning you know we had a conversation with someone today where they put beanstalk in a new perspective that we hadn't previously thought of which speaks to this concern which is and this is how it was designed but we never have thought to speak it we've never even thought of it in this capacity um whereas the vast majority of protocols if you uh miss the early period like you've kind of missed out um and there's there's some sort of fixed reward pool and that reward pool is always decreasing uh whereas in the case of beanstalk uh the weather increasing over time actually makes it more attractive for people to enter later in the game and so while as we've spent a lot of time discussing the soil system is designed to create an efficient market for soil at the same time the fact that the weather continues to go up is offering a really high return for later participants in the protocol which is pretty unique um and from a just positioning perspective i think what we would want to as a community maybe highlight is not that the weather being so high as an indication of things being in a poor state but instead an indication of the fact that the protocol is not designed to only benefit early adopters and there is some benefit to coming in at the current stage as opposed to at an earlier stage um in terms of the weather if that makes sense yeah it does i was i was just gonna say that that's a fascinating point um you know there's this there's this concept set called like the token effect right which is kind of in contrast with network effects in web 2 businesses um but our network effects still apply web 3 but you know i would be curious if anyone here can think of another protocol or web 3 model in which you know those incentives are kind of reversed like publish mentioned such that you know later adopters can actually reap higher returns from the protocol i think that's something super interesting and i'm happy that that that got brought up to you and of course like the pure economist in us disagrees and we're like well you're always better off acting sooner rather than later but the fact remains and i think it's an important it is an important thing to highlight given that that's such a concern at this point in time okay the floor is open for questions i have another but don't want to hog the the floor if anyone has other questions austin you have you have very good questions appreciate it dumpling um show that if your questions were not good we would still let you ask them austin but they are good well i appreciate that uh that note as well um so what was i going to say so i was thinking about looking the last week or week and a half of behavior and bean stock has been really interesting as the eth price has dipped a bit notably the deposited lp and deposited graphs have almost entirely stopped declining indicating that which would seem to indicate that the stock incentive mechanisms are working um so that's a long-winded way of saying my conviction beanstalk is as strong as ever and i'm curious in your experience uh you know on these calls with potential partners whether the dow treasury managers or other d5 projects that want to use a decentralized stablecoin i'm curious if you find yourself having to like hop through additional hoops in order to uh convince them of the value of being you know despite it hovering around like say 90 cents or whatever it is on a given day um i'm curious how some of those like calls uh have been going at a high level i mean to be honest i don't think that most people if the concern is the immediate price raise that with us um instead people are concerned about is the model sustainable which may be the same question but we've we've been asked whether the model was sustainable at any price if that makes sense so uh if anything where you might expect it to play out is just people are less eager to adopt beans at 87 cents but i mean just speaking honestly that's not been our experience over the past week and especially given this is where like the pump and dump in september was a blessing in disguise the fact that beanstalk has that history of um going down to 24 cents people at least the people that we've been talking with who have interest in being they're they're not really concerned about the marginal week below pegg or um a dip to 80 cents even you know and anyone who's looking at the meaningful data and you clearly are often focused on the withdrawal data there's a lot of really positive indicators that even with these large outflows uh from the crypto markets in general um the outflows from beanstalk have been very minimal and especially given the structure of stock and seeds where over time your incentive to stay increases over time we do probably expect that the people that we're gonna leave during the flush have left and so things have now been flushed out and um you know between each coming back up a little bit uh there has been a little bit of demand for being sensed the prices started to recover a little bit so i don't know if we have a an expectation as to you know how much that's affecting us on a day-to-day um but you know like we i mean candidly it's not i i don't think from a meaningful particip like uh the protocols that are interested in really integrating beans or pods um or doing something with us uh yeah it's not it hasn't really come up so it made you be just you know the elephant in the room but you know us like we're happy to address the elephant in the room so if anything it it feels more like it's not the biggest obstacle at the moment and when you say that their main questions are around if the model is sustainable like what do you think that they're really like getting at there are they looking at the debt level or well it it's hard to say and it depends on the conversation obviously and the context um but most most protocols in order to integrate being in some capacity you know are are interested in what's going on here right it's if you look at the history of other algo stables they've all died and so we don't look at it as a as a negative question like that's the obvious question is well everyone else has died so why aren't you guys going to die and we feel like we have lots of uh compelling reasons why that's the case um but there's nothing wrong with asking make sense thanks uh mod you have a question for us yeah hi guys can you hear me yeah we can hear you yeah um i i had uh two questions or um one one is more of a follow-up to the um the question of higher weather gives a higher reward to a later participant um and i agree with that but isn't this the case anyways for for any business is that the more you know desperate you are in raising capital uh the more discount you're willing to give out and you pay it back once you succeed and if you don't then you don't so does this make a difference or a different i mean or this is what all businesses like what what you're describing is totally accurate um i think if anything it's just a different way of framing it's not about this the micro right and a micro level you're totally right if you can't attract demand you have to increase or decrease your price which is in this case increasing the weather um so that's what's happening at a micro level this is more a comment at a macro level that the vast majority of other crypto protocols it is sort of a question of you know did you get in early uh and in this case there is an equalizing factor where even if you didn't get in early you can make up for that by participating when there's higher weather thank you thank you yes um the second question um which was the idea of i know right now that you know uh we're not like selling out of soil but when we do the idea of of measuring demand of soil uh through option calls do you think this idea makes sense and you know if it does is it even like you know worth considering so maybe just to state your idea um and correct us if i'm wrong but the idea is that when you have excess demand for soil in addition to the soil minted every season you can sell some sort of uh future on more soil so that people can pay to reserve their spot of soil in advance uh almost yes so when there is no more soil we're sold out of soil and and people are waiting to buy soil because that's happening so you know we're selling out of soil in consecutive seasons then when you're out of soil you start taking pre-orders in the form of deposits and then whenever soil is available those who have put those deposits automatically buy that soil and then those who have put those deposits can also you know cancel at any time but when they cancel they pay a fee so [Music] let's let's think about what the goal of soil is the goal of soil when the price is too low is to remove beans from the supply the goal of soil when the price is too high is simply to measure demand for soil what you're suggesting is that when demand for soil is too high we sell additional soil or allow people to reserve additional soil which would effectively be minting more soil in advance you know because when it's there so you're not you're not minting it or you're not issuing it you only know what's the demand right and only as you know calculating it season and season you start selling it to those who are the point is that that case in you're already because the price is too high you're in a case where you don't want um you don't want to [Music] to mint soil yeah in fact you know the new minimum soil uh when there's excess demand for soil is designed to really make sure that beanstalk doesn't mint too much soil when the price is too high um now while i agree that you're not actually minting the soil on the pods in the moment you're still actually opening up the doorway for demand for that soil too soon and specifically when we consider that the goal of soil is to create demand for beans when the price is below a dollar beanstalk would much rather wait not allow you the opportunity to buy the soil in advance when the price is too high and force you to wait to buy that same soil when the price is too low or not buying soil but buying beans to sow soy beans in the soil and so the the issue with creating this sort of uh future uh is that you're now reducing the or you're you're increasing the amount of soil that is minted which is not what you want to do to minimize inorganic demand i don't mean to keep going on on this one but when you take deposits aren't you increasing demand for beans because anyone who wants to buy right but that's what the stock doesn't want beanstalk doesn't want to increase demand for beans when the price is too high got it got it got it okay thank you thank you publius uh publish i had a question um can you talk about uh vader and the vader airdrop and also kind of what vader is and uh and their goals with uh you know with inter sort of working with uh beanstalk so first two things one uh vader and aphra are two different totally independent protocols aphra is the one with the airdrop um and aphra is specifically creating a d is working on creating a decentralized three pool with usdv which is the vader stable coin and frax um so the bean sprout has been doing a lot of the work with afra um to coordinate this and so maybe mr manifold uh you're you're the best person to answer dumplings question yeah sure um so as police mentioned uh aphra is not vader so vader is a burn dement stable coin on the ethereum blockchain um and aphra is just using vader as one of its components and it's a centralized three pool so the airdrop that uh field and silo participants are receiving is from afro uh not vader so sorry if that wasn't clarified initially um but that's that case and we should actually most likely be uh expect to receive that airdrop uh sometime this week um i'll say the little that i do know it's going to be you know the afra i some stable coin or eth pool will be initially really really low with liquidity kind of just to let the market play out um and can't kind of you know try to create the most fair and equitable uh token allocation and distribution as possible and then eventually after we'll start issuing bonds um whether it's uh aphra and some stable coin curve convex or you know like being usdb for example to start building its treasury up to basically start arbitraging these various pegs okay great and so the i guess how does um can you tell us a little bit about um their their vision and how um how bean fits in and sort of why why aphra chose bean to the bean community to to do an airdrop or how you guys just a little more about that yeah totally so you know i don't want to speak uh you know i think it's also a good idea to get andrew um maybe into one of these amas at some point so coordinate um so he can speak more directly towards afra but i'll give you my perspective on why aphra is uh really really promising for bean bean stock so you know by creating this decentralized three pool of three distinct state decentralized algorithmic stable coins in being usdb in front you can kind of start to aggregate um the unique features of these three different mechanisms so again so ustv is a burned immense stable coin so it's more of like this mechanical approach to peg stability brax is a uh semi-collateralized model um so it's kind of this more explicit you know mint and redemption for usdc approach to peg stability and then as we know bean is a credit-based approach that's uncollateralized um and so the reason why i personally think that this is really really interesting for bean is because i can see this leading to a lot of demand for beans so you know walk you through one potential scenario um let's say that beings are you know we have a we have a three pool and beans are overweight in that three pool such that you know beans are trading below peg and there's an excess of beans in the three pole you know we're trying to work out you know a dynamic such that you know that causes you know fracks to potentially mint into that pool um to start to re-weight it and and also you know stability from vader on the burn to mid-side to to re-rate the pool um and you know if beans are underweight such that beans are trading above one on the pole um that you know could also cause beans to mint right that would cause beans cement if you know we have a price oracle um that is tied to that poll eventually um so you know this is one way of saying that we think by leveraging you know some of the you know diverse peg stability dynamics of these other stable coins it can create you know some sort of reflexive feedback loops um that are really positive for being demand another reason why it's really interesting is that you know when we think about what type of liquidity and capital we want beanstalk to attract you know i like to think of it from like a time-weighted perspective what i mean by that is you know we want long-term capital that is invested into beanstalk and is ready to arbitrage and defend its peg rather than kind of transient capital so by introducing a partner like aphra you know you can imagine a world where you know afra let's say attracts you know 40 50 million dollars of liquidity on its initial bond sales um and you know takes that d3 pull takes a position within the silo and starts to accrue um a greater and greater percentage of you know stock and seeds and new bean mints um and what that could ultimately lead to is this dynamic where hey a lot of these new bean mints are going to long-term capital partners um versus you know maybe speculators or maybe more you know transient like you know opportunity seeking capital um and so that could also help stabilize the peg because um you know you're not really you're basically you know allocating more and more of total bean supply into longer term hands that is going to regularly arbitrage the peg so um you know i know that's a lot and i'm already seeing some messages come in so i should probably explain this a little bit better but those are some of the reasons why i'm really really excited about afrin you know one of the last thing i'll say is you know when when we think about being you know right you know issuing you know debt is just one of you know many potential ways to stabilize the peg and you know arbitraging around the peg is something that we all expect to start happening um and aphra is really the first play into that um to start to arbitrage beans peg in a big way you know we still haven't gone to that phase in our protocols growth and so that's another reason why it's really exciting you know a big player coming in helping arbitrage beans peg alongside you know beans you know native stability mechanisms but you know afro being the first mover you know the thought is we'll see more and more players come to enter this our market um continuing to tighten uh beans oh i'm so glad that um that you expanded mr manifold that was really great um also just looking like i think that the other reason that people might really like this three pool is because the the difference between that and the curve three pool that you know is die usdc and usdt you know there's a lot of usdc and usdt haters out there and i think that if um that just pulling that up on on coingecko i see like six billion is the size of that liquidity pool so that's uh yeah that's that's pretty great um [Music] totally and and i'm not sure if anyone saw um you know there's this guy on twitter at bianco research take a look at you know his last post about um you know usdc usdt market caps um you know um basically slowing of inflows of centralized stablecoins into d5 and you know as publius often mentions there there's literally a shortage of stable coins so you know i get really excited personally because a decentralized 3 pool that can mint at a much faster rate and and grow um in a more scalable fashion is really really interesting and i think everybody in this call knows that that's kind of ultimately the real solution that you know defy is is going to need and turn towards um to scale itself um and scale its stable coin market so a lot of really really cool reasons to get excited about that mr manifold would you mind dropping that bianca research thing into the uh the discussion board yeah i will it's actually in the general chat and i'm i'll also post it in the uh discussion board got you cool um well we're open for questions um if not probably cited another question for you um i wonder if you could talk us through um the kind of rip saw um if you you know for people who check the bean price on uh on coin gecko the you know to see it you know go from you know up and down ten cents you know within the matter of a few seconds is that um people arbitraging um you know how much uh do we know about specifics of that are people um arbitraging that is that bots um and can you just talk about that the that motion a little bit so well the coin gecko thing is separate coin gecko just doesn't have particularly accurate information always um that's separate um but if you're trying to just understand yeah i mean i'm looking here on coin gecko huh i don't know if i have a a good explanation for you here on on why this chart looks like this um yeah i don't i don't i don't actually know this doesn't look very accurate to me yeah this chart seems pretty inaccurate okay this is the short answer and could you uh how about since the integration of the uh the curve pool and um you know how that's affected stability and can you just talk a little bit about that definitely so the curve pool has been one of the main reasons why the broader crypto meltdown didn't have as large of effect on beans um because now there's liquidity against beans that isn't correlated to the price of ethereum in this case three curve and accordingly that has resulted in some arbitrage opportunities between the pools where for example the value of the east increases or decreases such that there's now a difference in the value you can extract from the pools that has resulted in some pretty significantly large uh trades between the curve and unison pools um but that that might be a little bit too in the weeds um the bigger point is that the curve liquidity pool has been a large factor in the dampening of the bean volatility even with with the market in in the state that it was and you know the outflows that did happen over the past week even though they weren't too bad uh you know all of all of it has been contributing to the price coming down the curve pool has been a major stabilizer go ahead austin i've got another one for you um whenever providing liquidity to the curl is integrated into the silo would you expect that to have a impact on price stability so it's tough to say um the thing that will create stability is demand for beings and demand for the bean three curve pool um such that people want to add liquidity to it uh it's a little hard to speculate as to whether or not the silo incorporation will create that demand but obviously only one way to find out that makes sense um i also remember you mentioning how the convert functionality might play with the providing liquidity curve i guess what would so right now the arbitrage opportunity is that you know if bean dips however much below a dollar you're incentivized to convert your lp tokens to silo beans what might that arbitrage opportunity look like with converting to liquidity in the curve pool so the first thing to note is that the integration of convert um will be part of a separate dip the initial integration of the b three curve pull into the silo will purely allow for deposits of those tokens and withdrawals from the silo um the convert functionality is a little bit more complicated to build out um and accordingly it won't be in the same dip but it it in short and i don't know if i have concise answer for you here so maybe it's just best to leave it at the goal will be you know within a week or two after rolling out the initial curve integration it might be a little more than a week or two um to also support uh convert functionality in the b and three curve pool uh as it's supported in the being ethereum pool um but then also and this is the reason it might take a little longer is we're trying to generalize conversions such that you can go from again if we take the general bean farm and the general being silo structure we really want you to be able to convert any siloed asset to any siloed asset um and so we're trying to figure out whether we can generalize that in this step or whether we'll just have to incorporate the bean spread curve pool if that's helpful yeah that is helpful appreciate it uh so i have a question when uh like in the future erc20 tokens are going to be generalized so you could deposit anything into the silo right as far as i understand um like the broad point of beans is so that people can have a low interest rate loan if they wanted to take out a loan for something and then they get point one percent um so like for example a lot of people use rari with ohm and then they'd do nine nine um so they'd deposit ohm and then it would still accumulate and then they'd take out a loan and then buy more home uh if people did that with ohm like in the silo like could they deposit ohm in the silo and then take out a loan for beans sorry uh i'm really tired today my question is like the entire point of beans is so that there's low interest rate loans is that going to be integrated into the protocol at some point where people can deposit collateral and withdraw beats so in that case the transaction wouldn't be a deposit and then a loan it would be a wrapping onto the bean farm and then a sale or a purchase of beans and then you know from a like a protocol perspective what you've done is you've you know not deposited but you wrapped your own onto the onto beanstalk um and then sold that ohm into beans now what you what you're talking about is the ability to deposit the omen to the silo and then borrow beans sell those beans into om and deposit more beans um that will not be the case what what i will say though uh nasdaq which you might find interesting so one of the things on afra's road map um soon after the launch of the d3 pool is rory fuse pools and the ability to borrow uh being fracks or usdv um off of certain tbd types of collateral so you know although beanstalk isn't you know building that i think you know publishes is kind of mentioned this like you know um he hopes uh or they hope that you know there's an ecosystem of apps that kind of build out this borrowing lending kind of functionality so that's definitely one of afra's goals and then you know taking those borrowed beans and potentially you know you know putting them to work either showing or or in the silo um so you know we can hopefully get to a world you know some point soon where you know we can borrow beans off of you know out of teas or whatnot but yeah we're definitely going to be starting with the rory fuse pools and going from there and that also gives afra just another way to generate cash flow on its liquidity okay it might also be time to mention uh it's pretty early yet but um we're you know talking with fiat dao about potentially using uh pods uh you know as something that you could borrow against so that's um early days and we don't have max so here in the in you know on stage to talk about it but um i just wanted to mention that as well so there's a lot a lot of interesting things on the horizon as far as um borrowing is concerned okay cool yeah i was just wondering uh if the the low interest rate loan would be utilized okay cool thank you yeah if anything the the structure that we envisioned here is that if you deposit or not deposit but if you well the verbiage is so hard to get given the beanstalk deposits mean differently but if you're providing uh if you're lending beans to a pool such that people can borrow beans from that pool the the lp token that you receive for providing that liquidity or that lending that being to the pool um that may be able to be incorporated into the silo for example so there is ways that this will work um but specifically lending won't be directly incorporated into the silo instead it will be through other protocols as mr manifold suggested okay well we've been going for a little over an hour definitely can take another question or two if people have them so maybe before we hop we would just use this to to just say a couple things um it's very exciting [Music] that the dow is getting organized but it's still not totally organized so we appreciate everyone kind of bearing with us as we continue to organize and get organized um but i think over the next couple weeks uh everyone should start to see an increase in not maybe an increase but just the the fruit of a lot of the the work that's been done over the past month uh and obviously we've talked a lot about those different things um the pod marketplace the generalized silo the generalized bean farm um but they're it's all happening and uh we're very excited for what the next couple weeks look like okay well uh thanks everyone for coming the uh if anyone's interested in the uh we have a operations meeting in the barnyard here in uh about nine minutes here and that's going to be mostly focused on the upcoming poker tournament uh which we're gonna be probably picking a date for and fleshing out a little bit more there so um feel free to head over there and yeah thanks for coming we will uh i saw also in the chat there was discussion of poe apps which uh we'll see if there's any way we can uh you know we can spin that up you know in the short term can't promise anything for next you know next week or two but it would be really cool if if there was a way to to coordinate that um so uh yeah thanks again for coming and we'll see you all next week and if you want to come but i'm just going to put the dow meeting in the calendar now uh 8 30 uh on thursday eastern time so have a good night everyone