🏦

Beanstalk <> BanklessDAO #2

Date
April 23, 2022
Timestamps
0:00 Intro • 2:15 Beanstalk contributors post-exploit • 5:58 What made this exploit possible? • 9:30 How will you avoid governance attacks in the future? • 12:02 Do you think the attack helps Beanstalk in the long run? • 15:05 Adversities in the past • 17:14 How will the Barn Raise work? • 22:28 Will there be a new Bean token? • 27:37 Will Pods also scale down? • 29:51 What assets can be used in the Barn Raise? • 31:35 How did Publius meet each other? • 34:40 Where did the name Beanstalk come from? • 36:50 Where did the metaphors come from? • 38:30 How did you get started in crypto? • 45:07 What made you realize crypto was going to be important? • 47:30 Will the other Publius' be more vocal post-doxx? • 51:10 What happens to Beanstalk during inflation? • 54:38 Experiment of the Barn Raise • 1:00:20 Is there a minimum amount to fundraise? • 1:02:00 Upcoming audits • 1:04:00 Outro
Type
Ask Me Anything

Recordings

Notes

Beanstalk contributors post-exploit

  • A wide variety of individuals made it very clear that their opinion was that Beanstalk is worth fighting for and they’re going to keep working on it no matter what, even though they can’t get paid anymore. The resounding message from the community and contributors was that Beanstalk still has a future.

What made this exploit possible?

  • The attacker borrowed a billion dollars in a flash loan and used them to acquire a billion dollars worth of Silo whitelisted assets, which allowed them to acquire a two-thirds majority of Stalk (the governance token of Beanstalk), which let them vote and execute a BIP (Beanstalk Improvement Proposal) that they had proposed 24 hours prior via a supermajority and drain all of the liquidity from the system.

How will you avoid governance attacks in the future?

  • In the short term, on-chain governance has been removed and Beanstalk will be governed by a community-run multi-sig for the foreseeable future.

Do you think the attack helps Beanstalk in the long run?

  • The glass half full perspective is that there are a lot more eyes and ears looking at Beanstalk and a lot more focus on security. If Beanstalk is able to come back from this it will be battle tested, which bodes well for the future.
  • But also, it’s unclear how much of the money it will be able to recapitalize and it’s still a horrible situation. Fortunately the system would be able to recover even if we don’t recapitalize the full amount.

How will the Barn Raise work?

  • Under the current proposal, the weather is going to start at 20% for a new Pod Line and this Pod Line is going to get paid out one third of all new Bean mints. The weather will continue to increase by 1% every 10 minutes for 3 days up to 452%.

Will there be a new Bean token?

  • A new Bean token is part of the restart.
  • One of the phases of the Barn Raise is a haircut across the entirety of Beanstalk, based on the percentage of the Barn Raise that is completed. So if the Barn Raise is able to raise 50% of the funds, the entire state of Beanstalk prior to the attack will be scaled down by 50% according to this proposal.

Will Pods also scale down?

  • The concept with this proposal is that the haircut will affect both the number of Pods and your place in line. So if your plot starts at X in line and it’s Y long, there’s only 50% of the funds in the Barn Raise raised, you will now have X/2 and Y/2. The whole thing will get halved.

What assets can be used in the Barn Raise?

  • It depends on what are the liquidity pools that Bean supports from the start.

How did Publius meet each other?

  • They met in college at the University of Chicago. They started working on Beanstalk some time after college, after some conversations over the holidays one year.

Where did the name Beanstalk come from?

  • At first there was no good reason to use the name Beanstalk. It was just a placeholder. But as the metaphor started getting built out more and more it made a lot of sense.

How did you get started in crypto?

  • Publius took an internship at an investment firm in 2017 and hit it off with their newly hired crypto portfolio manager. Shortly after they assigned him to work on crypto for the rest of the summer. He was offered a permanent job, but he wanted to go back to school. So ultimately he went back to school, but started his own firm with Publius. At some point he dropped out of school to work full time on his crypto firm, but it ultimately failed and he went back to school.

Will the other Publius' be more vocal post-doxx?

  • It just works out that the division of labor is such that Ben does a lot of the talking. He is more comfortable doing it, and it would be a bit more painful for the others. Brendan does much of the talking when it comes down to highly technical matters, as that is his strong suit and where his focus lies.

What happens to Beanstalk during inflation?

  • The value of its obligations decrease, which can be a positive thing in the long run. So as far as the health of the system is concerned, it’s not bad. But in terms of a utility perspective, it may become desirable to offer other stablecoins pegged to different assets.

Is there a minimum amount to fundraise?

  • There is no minimum. Beanstalk will just scale down according to how much is recapitalized. If zero dollars are raised, it would be like starting from scratch.

Upcoming audits

  • Beanstalk will be audited by Trail of Bits and Halborn.

Transcript

i know yeah i can you find now uh yeah beanstalk uh did make the front page of the wall street journal today which is uh you know crazy crazy so you know again which was under a slightly better circumstances are for a better reason but uh nonetheless it's uh you know notable true yeah it's a lot more um attention on b-stock now so that's good now we just uh i see um the path forward and how we're gonna turn the sentiment around so it'll be uh under much more positive circumstances all right so about ready to kick this off we almost got okay we got 50 people in the audience now this is a good time to kick it off is anyone else going to be coming up here or is it just us it's just us okay sounds good then we are rolling and ready to go whenever you are just give us like five seconds of clean air and go ahead gm everyone thank you for joining us today with another ama with publius the founder of beanstalk those of you who don't know beanstalk is a decentralized stablecoin based on credit that just experienced a devastating flash loan attack that drained the protocol of just about all of its assets on easter sunday april 17 2022 most projects will be finished after experiencing such a hardship but the beanstalk community believes that bean is worth fighting for the beanstalk dow is currently working for free to get the protocol back up and running and the path forward beanstalk will be launching the barn raise a public 10-day fundraiser to restore beanstalk publius thank you for speaking with us today at the bank list dao yeah thank you very much for having us charles no problem no problem at all so first off publius i would like to commend you on your leadership and remaining so optimistic after the attack the beanstalk community is exemplifying the solidarity that can be achieved in daos and it's really inspiring so publius are you surprised that so many beanstalk contributors decided to remain faithful to the protocol even though they can't be remunerated at this time able to hear me fine we can hear you yeah publius if you're speaking you're on mute i see you're unmuted now hey can you hear us now yeah i can hear you now apologies are uh our wi-fi switched over for some reason let me try to just uh prevent that from happening real quick um okay apologies the one of the things that was so like mind-boggling uh was the response from the community in the immediate aftermath of what transpired on sunday uh we particularly were uh totally you know distraught might be an understatement but uh we're very not optimistic right the protocol itself has not had a lot of venture capital backing or any real traditional vc backing whatsoever and the idea that there was going to be some sort of bailout uh seemed highly highly unlikely and in short you know 77 million 76 million dollars is a lot of money uh to to try to replace and it's not just 77 million dollars it's a hundred percent of the capital that beanstalk had right so really just a horrible position to be in and the community made it very clear that in their opinion uh and it was a wide variety of different individuals posting in the discord server and reaching out to us directly saying beanstalk is worth fighting for effectively and uh they're going to keep working on it no matter what and even though they can't get paid anymore a lot of these people are people that recently quit their jobs you know they're real jobs if you will to come work on beanstalk or beanstalk farms and it was just a resounding between the community and beanstalk farms and other members of the doubt it's just like a totally resounding uh message that beanstalk still has a future and you know people have have said many times that uh you're only as strong as your community uh and beanstalk uh is is demonstrating that in in real time in practice so it's been very uh inspiring to be a part of uh and we're we are as a result of the response from the community optimistic about uh the future the future that beanstalk still has in front of it well well that's very admirable um definitely big shout outs to the beanstalk community for holding it down and keeping this thing going so the attack was on beanstalk's governance model not as economic design so what exactly went wrong here what made this attack possible so in practice uh the attacker borrowed a billion dollars in a flash loan and use that money to acquire silo whitelisted assets and they were able to acquire uh effectively a billion dollars worth of silo white listed assets uh which allowed them to acquire a two-thirds majority of stock the governance token of the beanstalk dow and that facilitated them to vote and execute via a super majority a bip a bean stock improvement proposal that they had proposed 24 hours prior now in practice uh what the attacker did was a very sophisticated trojan horse strategy where they deployed bip 18 and 19 back to back and they effectively looked identical fifths 18 and 19. with the exception that uh bip18 uh called a an address an ethereum address that up to that point did not exist whereas bib 19 called an ethereum address that had a contract uh which was registered as on an ether scan as bip 18 dot sol and so in practice it it looked like bib 18 and bib 19 were the same but the proposer and again the the contents of bip 19 which this is substantive was just to donate 250 000 beans to the ukraine uh the concept was that it seemed like this person that was proposing a relatively innocuous bit made a mistake with pip 18 and then attempted to resubmit it properly with bip 19 if that makes sense so there was a sophisticated trojan horse at a social level it was mounted as well as an obfuscation at the blockchain level because then what they did was at once 24 hours uh elapsed because there's a 24-hour period between when bips are proposed and when they can be executed the the attacker launched the flashlight right where they borrowed uh the billion dollars they acquired the super majority of stock and they executed bip 18 but bib 18 which at the time had referenced uh or called an ethereum address that up until that point uh was inactive had nothing at that address the attacker used uh create two to deterministically deploy another contract at that address and that contract facilitated the execution of the actual attack from beanstalk so none of the uh on-chain uh code that was used to attack beanstalk uh was present until the attack itself other than bips 18 and 19 which appeared innocuous if that makes sense so it was an incredibly sophisticated attack that beanstalk was uh the victim of and you know that's in short what what happened and in summary it was an attack on the governance of the protocol right yeah that was um extremely sophisticated so the attack on beanstalk exposed how sensitive token weighted voting really is so does beanstalk intend to change its voting structure in the future how do you intend um on avoiding governance exploits and the path forward so this is a larger question that the beanstalk dao is going to have to consider over a longer period of time even to vitalik weighed in on on twitter that token-based governance is uh unsafe and in short uh there's sort of a short-term solution which bean stock farms has proposed and then a longer-term governance solution that uh in a truly decentralized and censorship fashion should be created tested audited multiple times and then finally implemented if the dow votes on it in the short term uh in order to get beanstalk uh in a position where it can uh run again without uh you know exposure to similar attacks uh on chain governance has already been removed uh and the thought is to have beanstalk governed by a community-run multi-sig uh for the foreseeable future until uh until an on-chain governance uh solution can be implemented and then there will be off-chain voting by the dow if that makes sense yes so um i'm also familiar with this project called orange protocol and this project creates the possibility of reputation-based voting which is generated from on-chain data and i think that verifiable credentials are the way to go for optimal dow governance voting based on reputation would pretty much eliminate the possibility of one person or a group of people manipulating dow governance due to owning the majority of the project so uh verifiable credentials i believe is going to be essential and protecting decentralization so um out of this whole situation the silver lining that i see is that beanstalk is now battle tested most projects will be finished right now however the incentive model for being stock to attract creditors is solid and the community proved that the protocol is worth fighting for so beanstalk gained a lot of attention since that exploit and um yeah i saw uh bloomberg reported on the attack as well but once beanstalk captures the 76 million in lost liquidity i think the protocol will each will reach a new level of respect do you think that the attack actually helped beanstalk in the long run well that remains to be seen uh the glass half full perspective is that uh there's a lot more publicity there's a lot more eyes and ears looking at beanstalk uh there's a lot more focus on security and as you said beanstalk is now battle tested and it's down but not out uh and if it's able to come back from this it you know it bodes well for the protocol in the long term um now the glass half empty perspective is this [ __ ] sucks you know the protocol was stolen from on the order of 77 million dollars and regardless of how how great the protocol is doing and how much of that money it's able to uh you know re-capitalize via this barn raiser uh the glass half empty perspective is yeah this is this is horrible uh but i i tend to agree with you jars that uh in the grand scheme of things if beanstalk is able to get back on its feet and from my perspective that doesn't mean necessarily even raising you know recapitalizing the full 76 77 million if it's able to recapitalize even a portion of it but the model is able to restart in a sustainable fashion and think that the structure of the the barns really does does encourage that and make that likely that beanstalk has a very bright future ahead of it regardless and so the barn raise is really a a jump start uh in many in many ways in our opinion and we're a big big fan of the idea that the dow has and the beans beanstalk farms has ultimately put forward and we're we're hopeful that the snapshot vote that it's going to be presented to the dow shortly uh will go forward to uh to basically green light the barn rays and uh we think it's a compelling way forward uh our understanding is that beanstalk farms also feels like it's compelling and you know they're the ones that ultimately presented the idea so uh kind of goes without saying but at the end of the day uh this is a yeah there's a lot there's a lot that can be done i think if beanstalk can really demonstrate the effectiveness of its credit model here and not just that but the demand for its credit uh the sky is the limit so this is a this is an opportunity this is certainly an opportunity whether in the long run it being stock is better for it you know what what the community and what being beanstalk is able to make of this opportunity will will be a large determinant yeah and it's definitely a study case for other dells because what happened to you who could essentially well what happened to beanstalk could essentially happen to many other dials really so it definitely opened the eyes to um governance especially since this was a governance exploit so uh um what other adversities has been stuck facing the past i know you have d pegged a long time ago and he was able to um recover from that so like what adversities caused deep pegging for being um in the past so from our perspective there's really two different types of adversities uh one is the price uh and the other is the debt level so there have been a couple periods in time where the price has been uh below a dollar and sometimes significantly uh in september it was down at 24 cents uh and then there have been other periods of time where the price is down at 80 cents or or even lower um now the price is currently at zero cents jaris so that's a a different set of circumstances or a an order of magnitude worse set of circumstances but that doesn't mean that the protocol is dead particularly because of the second axes over which the protocol optimizes which is debt level and the entire history of beanstalk effectively consisted of the debt level increasing over time except for the past two or three weeks prior to the attack such that uh beanstalk is in a theoretical way at least in a good position to issue debt right so even though the price is down bad right now the debt level the pod rate the the health of the system from a a debt perspective uh is in a much better place than it was a couple weeks ago and that hasn't changed as a result of the attack so the concept is that being stock does have this lever the credit over that it can kind of let out it can issue more debt increase its debt level um in order to try to bring the price back to a dollar if that makes sense so that's in practice how the credit based model gives beanstalk a chance here absolutely so um yes i understand the bond raise is coming up and the bond raises to restore up to 100 percent of the 76 roughly 76 million of non-being liquidity stolen from the silo throughout some change and 76 and change you know 76 77 you know seven so well any way you say it it sounds horrible jars yes yeah it's bad either way but um how will the um bond raise achieve this like how long um also how long will it last so here's our understanding of the current barn race proposal as beanstalk farms has proposed it there's a couple of different stages to the barn rays from our perspective it helps to think of it as three different stages the first of which has two phases so maybe four stages but three and a half however you want to make think of it the first the first stage with two parts is is the barn rays itself the second part of the barn raise is really where the core of the credit model of beanstalk is able to shine so normally the credit model so so in total the the barn raise the first stage the barn race is going to last 10 days in total the first stage is the first phase of it is seven days and the second stage is third days three days excuse me and in short the three day period is where they credit model of beanstalk the soil model the weather the first and first down mechanism the whole the whole shebang is going to be on full display where even though normally beanstalk is takes a very slow and steady approach to issuing debt and uh is unconcerned with the time it takes normally to attract lenders these are somewhat exigent circumstances and so in order to try to give a jumpstart to the protocol the question is how can you over a very short period of time model the normal effect of the the soil mechanism effectively and so the concept is to have the weather start at twenty percent for a new pod line and this pod line is going to get paid out a third of all be new beam mints going forward so for reference previously be every time beans are minted because the price is above a dollar uh half of all new bean mints go to the silo stockholders in the silo and half go to the pod line under this proposal one third of all newbie mints will go to the silo one third will go to the old pod line and one third will go to this brand new pipeline this bar and race pod line so the concept is if you are the first lender in this pod line this new pod line you are going to be in the very front which is unique the idea is for the weather to increase one percent every 10 minutes for three days so from 20 to 452 i believe uh which in practice simulates beanstalk uh trying to price its debt so that will happen over three days and the concept is that people can get in line at any uh weather they want from 20 to 452 percent over those three days now the the question becomes under that structure how does anyone price the debt it what what's the right interest rate to ask being stock to pay and so the idea is for there to be a seven day bidding process prior to the uh sewing period itself the three day sewing period where people can place bids at a given interest rate for an amount so someone can bid you know a thousand uh or a hundred thousand usdc or ust whatever the currency that is or currencies that are accepted in the the barn rays are or is and set an interest rate and the concept is that when the weather starts to go up during the sewing period if you bid a hundred percent you will get in line your bid will automatically clear when the weather hits 100 if that makes sense and in order to incentivize people to bid early uh the idea would be to offer some sort of bonus the earlier that you place your bits so it's a seven day bidding period if you bid on the first day you get like a a bonus that decreases the closer to the start of the sewing period itself so that's the barn ray structure if that makes sense charis wow um he said the weather increases one percent every 10 minutes um and at a certain point of time that's gonna be fun to watch that's for sure it's gonna be fun yeah that's every dj's dream right there so um my understanding as well is there be a new bean token is that correct so beans so there's really uh three phases to this and the bean the new bean token is part of the the restart if you will so after the barn raise is complete uh one of the main questions is how is beanstalk going to be able to sustain itself if it's only able to raise 10 percent of the 77 million 50 or you know eighty percent what does it have to raise a hundred percent so one of the key uh ideas of the proposal the second step or the second stage uh in in in the in the proposal is a a haircut across the entirety of beanstalk uh based on the percentage of the bar and raise that is completed so if if the barn raises able to raise 50 percent of the funds the entire state of beanstalk prior to the attack will be scaled down according to this proposal by 50 percent so the beans the stock the seeds the bdd that are in deposits uh the pods the entire system will get haircut such that the state of the system and the health of the system is preserved if that makes sense so for example the pod rate will not change beanstalk will not have an increase in the pod rate as a result of the haircut other than obviously the new pods being issued from the barn race but the concept of the haircut is the current state of beanstalk will be scaled to whatever amount of funds beanstalk is able to recapitalize now the third stage is the restart itself and the restart itself has a couple of uh details to it that are designed to set bean stock up for long term success so let's take the best case scenario where the fundraise the barn raise is able to accumulate the full 77 million 76 and change million uh dollars of value uh if silo members the people that had their value deposited in the silo that were stolen from they're they're they're they're getting effectively all of their value back and so they have a natural incentive to want to get the [ __ ] out you know like this is a incredible can't believe that all the money was taken and now it's back i'm cashing out you know and so the question is how to make sure that uh the people that are landing to the barn raiser or lending is part of the barn raiser don't feel like they're providing exit liquidity to the people that were stolen from so the third part of the restart and the state of beanstalk has to be reset that includes the issuance of a new bean token as you were asking about jaris but the concept is once beanstalk is reset restarted unpaused whatever you want to call it uh there will be a vesting on all of the silo assets that have been replaced so let's say you had a thousand dollars of bdv in the silo that has now been replaced or a thousand circulating beans that have now been replaced uh whatever that is uh there will be a vesting associated with those tokens uh or those deposited assets where it you can withdraw them or or claim them effectively at any time but the amount of those assets you have to forfeit your right to under this proposal uh is a function of the percentage of the new pod line the bar and race pod line that has been harvested which is creates a really nice dynamic incentive alignment in our opinion because if the silo members that are getting uh their funds recapitalized uh wait until the hunt all of the lenders that lend and recapitalize the system are paid back they don't have to forfeit a dollar whereas if they take out money when only 50 percent has been paid back they forfeit 50 their rights to 50 of of the assets and that also creates a very nice incentive alignment between the people that are all staying in the silo because then those unclaimed assets that the the people that are claiming forfeit effectively are just distributed to the other people that are waiting if that makes sense so there is some additional incentive to the people that are getting recapitalized to remain long-term supporters of the system so i think this is a very elegant proposal by beanstalk farms in some uh or in summary and uh you know it's it's been incredible to watch all of the community provide feedback and uh everyone's synthesized uh like like this optimal or getting close to an optimal solution if that makes sense so while beanstalk is um gaining its liquidity um so this allows everybody that lost money in the silo to essentially get their money back does this account for people some percent so does that account for people that had pods as well so in theory the hair the pods are debt right so the debt is really represented in a couple different ways uh the number of pots that you have placed in line and in theory the distribution of new bean mints and so the concept here is the the haircut will affect both the number of pods and the place in line if your plot starts at x in line and it's y long there's only fifty percent of the funds in the barn rays are raised uh you will now have x over two uh and y over two like the whole thing the whole plot will get halved in practice the place in line and the amount which is interesting now you are getting diluted if you're a pod holder under this proposal because even though the whole system is getting scaled back such that uh if the minting schedule wasn't changed and the old pod still received 50 of newbie mints then the percentage of the bean supply that your plot will harvest for will not rem will not be diluted however the third axis is what is the distribution of bean mints and under the proposal going forward until the the new barn raised pod line is fully harvested half of all new bean mints or excuse me a third of all newbie mints will go to the new pod line a third will still go to the old pond line and a third will go to stockholders and therefore uh there is some some dilution in terms of the calculus on when your plot harvests your percentage of the bean supply does that make sense yeah it makes sense my next question though was going to be um what assets are you going to be able to be sewn that um users will be able to sow can you still sow eath well not so he would um deposit ethan bean into the silo so well there's there's there is two questions right one is on the sewing functionality and the second is on the depositing the assets that will be depositable in the silo the so functionality should still be supported from some base asset now it'll be dependent on what are the liquidity pools that bean supports from the start and for simplicity it's likely to be only one liquidity pool maybe there will be a second uh but the concept is that uh there still should be the same uh nice user experience where you can go from ethereum or from whatever the other asset bean is trading against into lp tokens that are deposited uh or into the field and so so uh it's just unclear what asset that will be uh and the dow will have to figure that out and that's also something that could be negotiated if that makes sense that the dow does have some negotiating power because whatever assets bean starts trading against there's likely to be a lot of demand for those assets from beanstalk if that makes sense so uh i think that there's no reason to commit to what those assets will be just yet and uh it'll be interesting to see what the dow ultimately decides to to use okay interesting looking forward to that um so uh see here so not at yours you decided to dox yourself after the event so um i understand that there's three of you behind the pseudonym of publius just like the original publius who wrote the federal the federalist papers alexander hamilton john jayen uh james madison so how did you all meet how did you arrive at reanimating the character of publius so we met in college at the university of chicago and you know that's where we became friends we none of us were in college at the time that we started beanstalk uh brendan and michael both had graduated uh a year or two prior um and i think a year and a half prior at that point and i never graduated from college so uh in short how did we get started working on beanstalk uh we brendan and i happened to be hanging out around thanksgiving of 2020 uh because i was out in los angeles around then it was coveted times and i had i was just kind of floating around the country and uh brendan is from los angeles so he was home for the holidays and we were catching up and uh esd was blowing up at the time and we had this prior conviction that non-collateralized stable coins were going to be a major game changer for defy and so that evening we we read the esd white paper together we found it very compelling uh and inspiring but also we thought there were some very obvious inefficiencies in the model and we thought that we would we would work on an esd4 effectively uh so we started working for we thought it would be two or three months and very quickly realized it was uh you know not gonna be that uh mikey michael was brendan's roommate and he heard us talking about it non-stop and he was like i gotta get in on this so we quickly roped him on board and then for basically the next nine months the three of us started working on on beanstalk and we didn't know it's going to take nine months we kept thinking it was almost done almost done almost done but you know things take time and in short in august early august august 6 we finally uh deployed beanstalk on the ethereum so uh that's kind of the the short version of how we got here if you will okay so um did you always have the um name beanstalk in mind or were there any other names floating around i can't hear your jar right now okay um let me rephrase that question so now you have it if i hold on let me let me pull it up you can try to verify can you hear me okay can you hear me yeah yeah and now so um yeah the question asked before you um started to cut out was uh did you have any other names for beanstalk farms is there any other names floating around in the early stages so uh [Music] it's funny i'm trying to look through some of our old notes to see if there was uh any other working names i think uh there's like so it was originally gonna be an esd fork and i think we started calling it bsd uh bsd because of brendan and ben and that obviously didn't stick uh but we need as we started to write the white paper we needed some name to fill in effectively and it started with i think the beanstalk protocol and at some point it just got shortened to beanstalk but at the moment that the name beanstalk kind of struck uh it was funny because i remember thinking i'm gonna have to explain this a bunch why we chose beanstalk and i have no good answer but uh we started using it as a working title and as the metaphor started getting built out more and more it made a lot of sense so you know that that it just kind of was serendipitous yeah i wonder whose idea was it to have all of these metaphors that's what really uh got me interested in being stuck i really um made because it's such a complex project but um to me the um the metaphors it simplifies it gives it away that it gives it color you know like it gives meaning to everything that that's going to appreciate the protocol with that we appreciate that we all spent a lot of time on that metaphor so it's uh yeah it's that's very nice to hear yeah it definitely makes it uh interesting so um yeah was that your ideas to be so metaphorical so hard to give uh [Music] uh individual credit it was like a you know the amount of time we spent on the phone together talking it's you know we'd be like go into our little caves come back we got you know it's just a total collective brainstorm so hard to take credit it seemed like it was a lot of fun though coming up with this we had a we we put our whole heart and stolen to this thing so it was a total blast and we're still optimistic and we're still ready to put our heart and soul into this thing and we feel like beanstalk has such a bright future in front of it and at this point it's it's attracted like uh you know like almost 50 contributors to the protocol so we're and as we as we started with uh when we were really down in the dumps on sunday uh it was the other contributors that really uh demonstrated their love for the protocol and made it seem like there was something worth fighting for so uh yeah a lot to be said there all right right yeah once again big shout out to the beanstalk community for really holding it down so i'm curious to know when did your crypto journey begin in general like what led you down this rabbit hole so uh i think we all have our own individual journeys uh not sure if uh you know publish wants to come up here and chat about it at all either but uh the i'll just speak on my own behalf um the so back in 2017 uh after i'd completed my freshman year at the university of chicago where i was studying computer science uh i got a an internship trading global macro or trading fx at a at a at a family office or a hedge fund in manhattan and in short uh my first day on the job for my internship happened to be the same first day as uh their newly hired crypto portfolio manager and so he and i had the two crappiest deaths in the office right across from one another and they you know we we we hit it off uh and about two weeks later they said to me we're gonna pull you off of fx and have you come work on crypto for the rest of the summer and one of my truly favorite stories to tell jaris is that night i got dinner with a very close friend of mine and i was [ __ ] livid i'm like oh i have my dream internship like this is like you know fx and stuff had been what i was look interested in beforehand and had an internship before college i have my dream internship and now i'm getting pulled over to go work on fake internet money like ugh i can't believe this is happening and within 48 hours i knew my whole life had been changed basically like holy [ __ ] and [Music] uh fast forward to towards the end of my internship uh and at some point uh my boss turns to me and says what do we have to pay you to drop out of college and i'm 19 like what what in god's name do you make of something like that right so the the other relevant part here is that this family office was uh the family office of mike novogratz and it was in the process just as the summer was kind of winding down of going from a family office to what is now galaxy digital uh investment group uh which is needless to say one of the biggest companies in crypto and so in practice you know they were asking me to stay on board and work there right um which was an incredible offer and i was you know i spoke about it with my family and with uh the big boss and with my boss and uh was like 98 99 ready to take the job and one of my closest friends from college who's a total math wiz uh was out in the new york area for the us open and we hung out a bunch uh and when he left i kind of realized like i'm not i'm not ready to go live in new york uh alone like and work a real job like i'm i want to go back to college you know uh but i knew that crypto was was not just the future but i basically couldn't do anything but crypto and so the question was how can i both go back to school and uh do some sort of uh work you know similar to what i was doing over the summer uh but you know for myself and so thus was born south side digital capital uh which uh brendan did a little bit of help with me on we tried to build an ethereum node at one point uh my buddy who came out to the us open he ended up being my business partner um but south side digital capital was a crypto investment company and that was you know quite the learning experience it did well for a time and then not very well and got kind of like a a two diligent risk management if you will in many ways and uh ultimately ended up having to shut down the business because it was not doing very well and it was like a very humbling [Music] uh two or three year experience and set of lessons and uh went back to college because the business failed i i dropped out of college to work on it full-time at some point and i went back to college and was back at college for like six months and then covet hit and so wasn't down to do the covid classes and all that bullsh [ __ ] and so basically uh you know and that was why i ended up in los angeles i was just kind of floating around i was just reading as many books as i could and uh exercising and stuff like that so in short uh sorry about the noise uh in short basically got uh you know was doing lots of independent study and trying to acquire all of the skills that i wish i had while i was running southside uh and you know then brendan and i and then mikey started working on beanstalk together and that kind of became the whole the all-intensive process so that's the that's the long and the short of it jaris uh but that's how i got here uh brendan and mikey each have their kind of own independent journeys through crypto uh and uh life but uh that's that's how i got here at least well that's an amazing story i'm glad that you shared that with us today so um you said that initially you was upset when you had to uh handle that crypto side at your job but um you said it only took you said about 48 hours for you to understand that crypto was the future what was it that gave you that that moment like what gave you what what was it that you saw that um allowed the light bulb to really go off was it ethereum or like what asset in general or was it just understanding what blockchain technology was all about i read the bitcoin white paper i was playing i set up a bitcoin wallet i set up an ethereum wallet and [Music] the whole concept of autonomous technology uh or autonomous software that is run based on incentives and run based on economic alignment uh game theory it was just a total mind [ __ ] you know like it it it it opened up it opened up a wide variety of different uh new axes of thought which had previously been totally uh you know i was unaware of basically so uh it was just an amazing and that was just the beginning it's not like i learned everything there was to learn in the 48 hours but it's just that's how much time it took me to realize this is a game-changing piece of technology uh or or technology paradigm and that this is going to be basically you know what i work on for for the for probably the rest of my life or certainly the foreseeable future you know i feel you yeah definitely i had that same experience when i came across a um youtube a youtube video of bank list the first very first time i saw a bank list and heard uh david hoffman and ryan shawna um brian sean adams speak when the first time i heard them speak to uh mark cuban about nfts now the first time i heard about nft was through bankless and that just really like just changed my mind i really wanted to be a part of this industry you know i wanted to like learn the lingo and be able to um know what's really going on to the extent of david hoffman and ryan sean adams and now i'm here and then the bankless dad was just amazing um what this system allows you know through decentralization so um i also want to say that a lot of people that i speak to regarding beanstalk has much more faith in the protocol now that you are doxxed and i recognize that you are the voice um yeah that you're um the voice behind publius but will the other two be more vocal going forward so in general there's a couple things to say we've always tried really hard to not be the leaders as much as people do do ask discuss lots of questions and we have lots of opinions and thoughts because of how much thought we put into the model uh but at the same time uh yes just because of the three of us uh division of labor uh talking is one of the places i tend to uh excel compared to the other uh the other two per se um and furthermore uh you know they don't love to talk per se um and not that i love talking but um you know this isn't nearly as painful for me as it would be for the other two if you know what i'm saying charizard so just kind of a division of labor thing i end up doing a lot of the talking now historically uh they have participated brendan in particular uh answering a lot of technical questions um but in general uh unless it's you know unless it's particularly technical where it's it's it's something that uh you know i'm unable to give the complete picture of in a sustained fashion uh you know normally we don't necessarily feel like it's it's necessary for all of us to be talking and there is something to be said for the decentralization of pooples right like it's nice that there's not one publius right so we don't all agree on everything and we have constant internal discussion and uh one of the things that i think uh contributors to beanstalk have seen a lot is that we don't agree and there's constant internal discussion and so uh the one of the things that will likely change is that may be slightly more public if that makes sense if there end up being longer term uh you know academic or intellectual disagreements if you will that are all healthy in our opinion but the concept is uh there's there's there's something really nice about there even though i i do a lot of the talking there there really is no no individual with a say even if all of publius agrees that's not really ultimately what matters it's what the dow wants and we just view ourselves as complementary to and a part of the dao uh and yeah it's uh it's funny right uh all this talking uh it feels like uh it feels like we're repeating ourselves a lot but it also feels like there's a lot of benefit to getting out of new audiences and having a similar but slightly different conversation where the the goal is to communicate as much information as possible that's a pleasure so uh for us it's unfortunate that it's under these circumstances but in general you know what more could we ask for them to have the opportunity than to talk about being stuck all day right like this is something we put our heart and soul into and the fact that people want to listen is is incredible it's incredible and a lot of people uh can you guys hear me what's up cable hey what a pleasure this has been an absolute delight to hear you i am i've been a big fan of beanstalk for a little while now i got introduced to it by um uh path i know that he works with you guys closely and i just oh man he is the man and literally just this entire story is unbelievable what you guys have been doing lately it's it's one for the ages so like huge kudos to you for managing to get this undone sir the story is not written no exactly it's not written yet but i'm telling you okay okay my question is this i've got a good question for you so i love the model i've delved into it in depth the one concern that i have is what happens when the us dollar which is inflating at double digits at the moment becomes the incorrect thing for us to be pegging bean to what are we going to start picking bean to well two things there's a couple of things to say here one that's a good problem for beanstalk to have uh two uh uh in short the general devaluation of the us dollar particularly compared to a theory example or other assets that being traded against uh is long-term good for beanstalk like the value of its obligations compared to the other value that exists there if the obligations are denominated in usd peg beans that is actually healthy for the system however from a utility perspective agree that there may be a desire for other stable coins in addition to a usd bean and a btc bean or you know what i'm saying like goods or something like that uh a token that is pegged to the value of a basket of goods the only and based on the current structure of the oracle uh in practice that just brings it off now can you hear me hello well sorry i didn't know if i got cut off currently the or i can't hear publius right now the oracle uses the usd pool uh where in practice that substitutes as a good value for the us dollar on chain so beanstalk could use the uh an eth wbtc pool to issue a btc db i think other people can hear me though jaris just for reference uh although i guess he can't hear me saying that so that's not helpful unfortunately i can hear all of you guys okay we can hear you but you can't hear poop news but we can use it got it discord is running out of gas leave the stage and come back up that'll usually solve it i see muted so for those who aren't particularly familiar with with this whole scenario it's just i we've never as far as i'm aware in the history of crypto ever seen a case like this where a protocol is not only got zero dollars but it's effectively got negative 76 million because it actually has to pay these people back if it's going to start again it's a really fascinating experiment and i'm can't be i would argue it doesn't have any fixed liabilities up to 76 77 million because of the haircut right where if only 10 percent but that's such but that's such a unique situation the fact that you have thought about this clever mechanism to actually like you know incentivize all different parties it's it's it's part the coolest part this is already a part of beanstalk fundraisers are already i couldn't agree more or the bean stuff this is like just a slightly unique fundraiser it's literally in the white paper how cool is that the protocol has done it's so nice capital in mass like this you know it's we now get to test we get to test if it works it's going to be cool on the ground i appreciate that and just want to say just want to say it feels like well a lot of the core ideas came from us at this point it's such a collective effort the barn raises the best example the vast majority of the structure of the barn one of those things where there's just this incredible brain trust around beanstalk and uh yeah it's it's very cool hopefully uh there's an increase in the security brain trust surrounding stock as a result this attack but the economic brain trust is very strong so i i find there's a great future ahead of it i find it very difficult to believe that the security like entire ecosystem within crypto hasn't just gone and delved into what you just built like as if they haven't they hadn't heard of you until this hack so it's it's i think that i don't i actually think that this entire pr exercise effectively um for you guys to your point you get to talk about it every day everybody's looking at it like it's amazing the actually this will be looked back on for for a huge reason just to garner attention like that's what this thing is managed to do which has been fantastic you know and effectively attention is this guess race bills right like you're fighting against all of the nft projects and everything right like that's that's what's going on here couldn't agree more this is uh the epitome of no no publicity is bad publicity it's [ __ ] yeah if there if there was ever an if there was ever evidence of that you know so uh yeah it's a appreciate your positive attitude cable and uh you know welcome to the bean bean community oh man it was an absolute pleasure like you know let me just be very frank i put a decent stack into the silo and i was like i did the homework and i was like this is a fantastic mechanism i feel comfortable doing so and you know i it was my first drug encryption i've been in crypto since 2013 so it's it's stung right that said like i'm over it now and the fact that there is even any whisker of a chance of me getting it back is the most [ __ ] exciting thing i've like ever like so i think that this incentive mechanism if it works is going to create the most rabid group of community builders like people like me who i was like i literally thought i'd lost everything and then i got it back it's like it's amazing so i i'm you know huge kudos to what you're building and i can't wait to be on the journey with you guys it takes a village sir so it's uh we feel equally excited to be a part of this and uh yeah it's it's to us it's it's equally incredible that it's not just huh maybe there's a chance here it's like wow there's a real there's a real path forward for being stuck at this point in time and i would make the argument whether the fun the barn raiser raises 10 or 50 percent if your time horizon is long enough at some point you know you will you will make the money back via beanstalk senior ridge because again the system is has always been designed to be as fair as humanly possible or as autonomous this is it like it's funny i i try to explain your project to people and i go look in crypto it's all about asymmetric upside right like you're looking for the one in like the tam on what you're building it's doesn't get bigger like money is the bubble that never pops like that's novella's quote and i love it and it's true it's like that's what we're competing for here so you know kudos to you i love the terminology and everything even though it took me an entire weekend to wrap my head around the whole protocol it's [ __ ] complicated but thank you for what you've built so you know kudos and i wish you guys all the best thank you for sharing that cable thank you for coming up here and speaking um yeah i feel you yeah it took a few days for the um for all of the uh metaphors to really like stick but once it does you know that you're on to something special with being stuck so um i see we are a little past time here um if anybody has any questions feel free to come up to the stage in case we get yeah in case we get no one uh up the stage i would have two questions on i kind of missed the opportunity to ask while we talked about the boundaries but the first one is about the barn race protocol and so you mentioned that um oh let's formulate it like this so what is the minimum amount of capital that to be raised in the bond rates uh up in may to unpause the protocol so given this a lot of thought and let's say the barn raiser raises zero dollar then beanstalk is restarted in practice that is the same as beanstalk just being restarted from scratch so from our perspective the two options at this point are either to have some sort of barn raiser or something to get the protocol up and running or restart it from scratch and so the concept of well if the barn raiser fails what else is going to happen well you restart it from scratch so from our perspective it's kind of tautological the barn raiser is the barn raiser and beanstalk will continue regardless and one of the nice things about the structure of the barn raiser is beanstalk scales down to even zero percent based on the amount of funds that the barn raiser is able to raise so think it's a very elegant way to have the market decide the scale of beanstalk at this point in time and yeah that's uh there's no minimum in short because of that from our perspective that's awesome okay thanks for explaining that and uh the second and final question for me here would be uh you mentioned in your uh not in the path forward um article that you will be partnering with trail of bits and unify uh for securing security measures can you maybe elaborate a little bit on that here for the audience as well definitely and beanstalk farms and the dow as a whole have really used this as an opportunity to emphasize security as much as possible so in addition to trail of bits which will start an audit uh in the beginning of june halbourne is also now going to start an audit on beanstalk in a week and a half or two weeks yeah two weeks and that's in addition to a bounty program through immunify so the concept is to use a variety of different uh vectors to try to or attack vectors against potential threats like uh real high quality audit firms and decentralized bounty programs so i think that going forward this is going to be an incredibly high a priority for everyone who has anything to do with beanstalk and with good reason and in the long run think that beanstalk will be better for it nice all right um thank you so much questions for me here uh jairus um if anthony hasn't anything to add on this i think we can wrap this up and be mindful of everybody's time here yeah let's see him checking cc chatter see if we have any questions see uh jar lacks so i hope i said that correctly jarlax will say it will be a huge underdog comeback story yeah i agree yeah i was just gonna say i appreciate you coming out here and then explaining everything to us and um i don't have any specific questions i think it was covered pretty well thank you very much well appreciate you guys having us uh there's still uh i think the barn raise is scheduled to start the seven day bidding period supposed to start may 2nd uh and then the the sewing period is supposed to start may 9th so there's some time for everyone to kind of get their bearings together and you know figure out exactly what what's going on and we really appreciate the opportunity to come here and talk to you guys about what's going on because the more people that are aware uh think the better for beanstalk uh so uh really appreciate you guys uh along with this opportunity most definitely thank you for coming up here and sharing your story that was awesome and i see um my friend drost he wrote thank you publius and appreciate the transparency yeah thank you for coming with us and um yeah sharing your story it was awesome it was really amazing to hear it's always great speaking to you publius saying you know i'm looking forward to the barn raise and everything that beanstalk hasn't planned for the future thank you very much jairus i appreciate it tremendously we appreciate it tremendously thanks everybody have a great weekend