gm d-gen friends the following is from a bankless dow ama with publius the founder of beanstalk beanstalk is a decentralized credit-based stablecoin protocol built on ethereum and publius gave us the dl on the protocol itself censorship resistance the metaphors behind the platform and much much more join me nf thinker my co-host jaris james beanstalk founder publius and bean merchant from the beanstalk community as we do a deep dive into the future of decentralized money hey what's up bean merchant how's it going everybody good morning gm yeah we're excited for the opportunity to uh share a little bit more about being stuck with a new audience so uh this is uh you know a very high quality community in our opinion so grateful to be welcomed in all right everyone so i'm gonna give a brief introduction well first off good morning everybody today we have publius the creator of beanstalk protocol which can very well become the standard in decentralized stable coins my interest in beanstalk was sparked i would say about a month ago when i saw nf thinkers post about beanstalk and one of the educational channels in the bankless dial i did a quick google search and i visited the website being that money and i was very impressed with the ui the website is stunning i then read the white paper which is very intense mathematically i love the idea of a stable coin based on credit this allows the stable coin to actually be decentralized because it's not backed by actual us dollars in any way and i'm extremely interested in the future of being protocol i started making tweets related to beanstalk about a month ago as well and became friends with axey aka being merchant and together we made this ama happen so my first question for publius is how um my first question is how did alexander hamilton inspire you to create being protocol i noticed that you quoted alexander hamilton in the intro of your white paper the the inspiration is uh multifaceted so publius the pseudonym uh is also a reference to alexander hamilton uh published was the pseudonym that he uh james madison and john jay used to publish the federalist papers which at a very pivotal time in american history uh was used to argue on behalf of the constitution and if we look at the the history of the role that alexander hamilton played in the both the founding of the country uh and more than that the founding of the banking system in this country uh given you know and maybe without being too explicit about how this is a response to uh many of the current uh financial uh you know the maybe not many but the current financial system in general uh and the structure of it uh were were heavily inspired by original thinkers like alexander hamilton who uh thought from the ground up uh and from a first principal's perspective and um the quote the epitaph at the top of the white paper um i think speaks a little bit to where particularly the inspiration uh from alexander hamilton has come where even though the the banking system in many ways is uh a descendant of his line of thinking on the the federal government's responsibility uh in the economy but the quote is a national debt if it is not excessive will be to us a national blessing it will be powerful cement of our union and i think it it's quite evident that that that if uh if it is not excessive uh is both no longer the case in practice uh in the united states but more generally also applies to beanstalk which is trying to issue its own currency based on credit and as kind of a guiding principle uh you know a stablecoin protocol obviously the name of the game is price stability at a peg but in in the case where you have a credit based protocol uh an excessive debt uh is ultimately going to be the kiss of death for something like that where if the debt level is so high that you can no longer attract uh creditors that is ultimately how a credit-based system fails and so there's a lot of parallels uh that we've drawn from the both the current financial system and and uh some of the history around it uh that has inspired beanstalk that's very powerful i love that so beanstalk is the first of its kind being a credit based stablecoin protocol what exactly makes a credit based stablecoin superior to a collateralized one so while i believe that the beanstalk white paper did term the phrase credit based stablecoin uh we do have to give credit to uh predecessors like esd uh and basis that had a similar model um so you know not necessarily claiming precedence um now to answer you substantively as to why a credit based model is superior to a collateralized one the the starting point is that anytime you need to lock up an asset uh to mint a stable coin anytime you need to lock up collateral uh there is some sort of opportunity cost associated with locking up that capital meaning that you could be doing something else with that capital and accordingly uh you need to compare the return that you would get in exchange for locking up that capital with the potential other uses for that capital and in the case of stable coins uh the requirement to lock up some collateral has resulted in a a requirement effectively to earn some sort of positive interest positive return on your stable coins because of this opportunity cost and where this comes becomes particularly evident is at scale so while it's fine you can try to get a billion dollars of off chain or on-chain collateral to make stable coins at scale it's really hard to find a trillion dollars of off-chain or on-chain collateral to lock up to mint stable coins and particularly if you're going to lock up a trillion dollars doing nothing other than being used as collateral to mint stable coins you're going to need some sort of return on that asset which is going to result in high borrowing costs for stable coins so in practice the fact that there isn't necessarily the right incentives uh to continue to lend uh or lock up capital to make more stable coins but even though you have and there are a real variety of different models uh on how to maintain the peg even though a lot of them are really good at peg maintenance the result of the high opportunity cost implicit in their models for the supply shortages implicit in their models is that there are high borrowing costs to use those stable coins and the result of high borrowing costs to use stable coins is that in practice what you can actually use those stable coins for in a cost-effective way becomes much more limited if i need to pay 10 or 15 percent a year to borrow stable points to use indeed fire for whatever i need to when factoring in whether my actions are going to be profitable factor in the 15 borrowing cost and accordingly what it is that is actually profitable uh or practical to use stable coins for within d5 is quite limited and the result of this limitation is that while you have really cool protocols being developed in reality there's really no product market fit because all of these stable points that currently exist have implicitly the requirement to they really need to soak up interest in some form and if they don't have some sort of built-in way to earn interest then the stablecoin models that currently exist don't really work in practice so from a like a very high level perspective and there are certain uh unique cases like tara luna that are worth uh you know special consideration that aren't exactly the same because they figured out a way around this collateral limitation by having the value of luna flow freely um ultimately in general these collateralized models have really high usage costs and that makes them pretty impractical so if we juxtapose that with uh a credit based model beanstalk doesn't actually need to lock up any capital whatsoever in order to issue new stable coins uh stablecoin issuance is purely a function of demand for the stablecoin in practice anytime the time weighted average price over the previous season which is an hour in beanstalk is above one beanstalk increases the supply of beans in order to try to return the price to a dollar and so in practice you know whereas currently you can buy usdc for a dollar but then the borrowing costs are 10 or 15 uh with bean you'll be able to buy it for a dollar or a slight premium uh but then there will never be any uh implicit or inherent carrying cost to it and instead um all of bean mints are distributed to uh participants in the system in some capacity there are some there are a couple different ways to participate in the growth of beanstalk but in general not only do you go from like a negative carry where you have to lend your stable coins out or use them in some other protocol to break even in beanstalk you can deposit your beans in the silo which is kind of like the bank of the system and earn a protocol native interest rate based on the future growth of the bean supply and so while obviously there is a risk associated with the protocol at large and its ability to maintain the peg the silo interest rate because it's protocol native is sort of a risk-free protocol native interest rate as compared to which would be positive in this case as opposed to basically every other stable coin that currently exists has implicit uh or explicit negative carrying costs wow there's a lot of thought put together put behind this project i really respect that so i understand that beanstalk protocol is on ethereum mainnet right now um do you plan on being on a layer 2 in the near future so the the only thing that is hard to determine is what you mean by near future ultimately we are uh big believers in the idea that the the technology the cryptographic primitives that blockchain technology is built off of uh is not gonna tend towards one dominant blockchain and particularly that's not gonna happen over the next five to ten years let's call it and accordingly the real question is how can you leverage the network effects of the current beanstalk that exists on ethereum mainnet and leverage that credit history to expand the network uh in a way that is retaining the decentralization that is core to to beanstalk and the security that comes with the ethernet you know you don't wanna by adding other chains now compromise the security of the version of being stuck on the ethernet net how can you balance those trade-offs and in short uh we're actively working on not just a layer two implementation of beanstalk but a more general cross-chain implementation of being stuck but that is um a couple months away at at the least at the moment we're thinking that will happen sometime in the second half of 2022 um whereas the the first half of the year is more focused on fully building out beanstalk on eath mainnet and then while that's going on we're going to be working uh internally on the cross chain uh infrastructure okay interesting that's something to look forward to so um as you know there's constant talk about the sec cracking down on stable coins is being stuck truly censorship resistant so [Music] the short answer is it is designed as such in practice you're only as censorship resistant as you are actually uh you know resistant to specific types of attacks so at the moment uh there are a couple places of uh you know pressure points if you will in the protocol that uh could be further alleviated for example uh the the owner address of the contract that deployed beanstalk um which is you know publius's wallet uh still has ownership privileges over the beanstalk contract and that is because beanstalk hasn't yet been audited uh we expect the first audit report uh any day now from omnisha which is very exciting and so as we get uh and the community gets more comfortable that the protocol itself is uh you know the code itself is secure um we'll be able to kind of release uh those privileges from the publius wallet and that will kind of remove that last point of potential sensor censorship or centralization which is why we would call it a pressure point towards censorship um that currently exists um to speak a little bit more generally other than that one pressure point which is just um that exists currently and we're actively working uh to alleviate that uh there's a couple different uh organizations already working to develop beanstalk that are uh somewhat independent from publius so there's been stock farms uh which is a core set of contributors and developers uh that work on both the code and marketing and uh branding and content uh that are really focused on developing beanstalk in a fully decentralized capacity and then there's also bean sprout which is a beanstalk accelerator both of which have been funded through on-chain votes via the beanstalk dow and accordingly you know we really do feel like even beanstalk was launched just under six months ago even at this point in time there really is a high level of decentralization to the current development of beanstalk um with regards to potential censorship uh obviously if the ethereum network were compromised uh that would that would cause an issue uh but more generally the other place beanstalk could get uh compromised from a censorship perspective for an attack perspective is uh if the ownership of stock uh the governance token of beanstalk which will soon be an erc20 token uh became own uh owned in a by a concentrated uh set of individuals that were looking to to stop or sense or attack being stock in some capacity and you know the the comment on that front is both the current ownership of stock is already highly uh or highly decentralized or has a very low uh rate of concentration uh because of the fact that beanstalk was launched uh with no pre-miner pre-sale or anything like that and uh the issuance of beans and stock the governance token has been a hundred percent according to the normal issuance schedule but more generally uh the design of the protocol is such that the ownership of stock should become less and less uh centralized and concentrated over time and so already six months into launch uh the ownership and distribution of ownership of beanstalk is quite decentralized and therefore we would feel pretty comfortable saying that with the exception of those things that we highlighted above uh the protocol is already at a pretty high level of censorship resistance it's amazing and you only been around for about six months so um i understand that beanstalk uses a ton of metaphor to describe certain um protocols can you break down these metaphors for people that is new to being stalked which is most of our audience here such as seeds stalks pods sunrise silo weather and seasons definitely so there's a as you said a ton of terminology that's specific to beanstalk and in general we we pray we play pretty heavily into the the farming theme so maybe just to walk people through some of the terminology and uh i apologize in advance because it is a little bit much but we'll try to be as clear as possible so being is the stable coin um there are two two different beanstalk native uh things that you can do to earn interest on the bean farm so on the bean farm you have two different ways to earn interest you have the silo which is the bank and you have the field which is the decentralized credit facility so let's start with the silo the silo uh allows you to deposit assets into this beanstalk allows you to deposit assets into the silo currently you can deposit beans and lp tokens for the being b unisoil pool but soon you'll be able to deposit a variety of different tokens like lp tokens for the bm3 curve pool into the silo when you deposit assets into the silo you receive stock which is the governance token and seeds so in the silo you have stock and seeds stock is kind of a play on words because of stock it very closely resembles equity uh in the sense that you're entitled to a portion of all future bee mints so you have uh interest in the growth of the protocol and it also entitles you to a vote in beanstalk governance based on the amount of stock that you own so stock stock is the is the governance token of beanstalk seeds uh yield or grow more stock every season so stock grows from seeds every season and maybe just to speak a little bit on the model itself uh one of the main problems that other uh other attempts at an algorithmic stable coin like est faced is that when the price of a of a being is below a dollar there's no interest being paid out to the silo and accordingly in the short term there's no reason to remain deposited in the silo there's an incentive to withdraw your assets from asylum do something else with that and so beanstalk there is a slight withdrawal freeze which is decreasing it started at 24 seasons and is now coming down over time uh and will lower us as low as four seasons a season as an hour in in the beanstalk ecosystem but but the main uh stock and seed incentive mechanism to keep people to prevent a run on the bank during uh price deviations below the peg is as follows so when you deposit assets in the silo you receive stock and seeds based on the bean denominated value of your deposit every season that your assets stay deposited in the silo your stock excuse me your seeds yield more stock so you get more and more stock the longer you are deposited in the silo when you assets from the silo you have to forfeit all your stock all your seeds and all of the stock that grew from your seeds during that time and so if your intention is to withdraw your assets from the silo and then quickly redeposit them uh that becomes incredibly inefficient economic behavior because you have to burn the grown stock that you've received for being in the silo and then if you're gonna you basically start from scratch again when you deposit them again in the future and just to reiterate you don't forfeit any of the beans that you were paid as interest from being in the silo you only forfeit the stock and seeds when you withdraw from the silo so you do earn permanent interest in the form of new bee mints and we would note to facilitate compounding interest all of the bean mints that you are paid are immediately deposited in the silo receive more stock and seeds uh and accordingly you now start to earn compound interest within the silo if that makes sense so that's that's the silo half of the equation i know that was a lot of terminology but maybe before i move on to the field um i can clarify anything if you think uh if you think that's helpful well uh i get it do anybody have any questions regarding the silo let's have a look in the crowd and see if there's anybody uh with questions uh cc chatter is open anybody who wants to ask some things uh yeah you're right that was definitely a lot of terms and it's it's hard to understand these things in a financial sense um but it kind of feels to me like what you're doing is um kind of similar to how an actual currency an actual fiat currency works um so in my eyes i'm kind of seeing this as an eth-based fiat in a way but without the government ownership without the censorship the other thing you mentioned in there is um it is increasingly difficult to be owned by a single source of power unlike mainstream media who we know has um usually one or two or three large sources of income and those are the people who control the narrative um so i really like that question on censorship jared um uh jairus and your answer was was succinct i um yeah i think that was a great breakdown did you have anything else to add to the censorship issue is this something that you spent a lot of time contemplating or was it something that just came to you um almost as if it's when you think of it the way you broke it down it seems very obvious that this might be what's broken with the system um so maybe you could uh just explain a bit more about the thoughts behind the censorship definitely so i think if you don't look at history you're bound to repeat it and that's nothing profound but what we're specifically referring to is uh if if you followed what happened to basis back in 2017 uh they raised in an ico over 130 million dollars uh to issue a an algorithmic stable point and you know we followed it somewhat at the time and when when kind of being stock was done and in preparation for for starting to kind of present it to other people we went back and reviewed a lot of the other stable coin models and tried to re-familiarize ourselves with them in a little bit more detail and it really stuck out to us just how similar uh the basis and beanstalk models are and there are some real differences from an economist perspective but at a macro level there were a lot of similarities i think and this is the key point one of the main differences and it wasn't just the fact that it happened for an ico with people that put their names on the project but more generally the senior rich model that basis employed the basis seniority shares worked as follows where anyone who participated in the ico uh they were the ones that owned now the senior edge tokens and the senior rich tokens uh were effectively you know what they should be worth is the future uh expected value at you know some sort of net present value uh of future mints of basis um that should have been sort of priced into the basis senior and share token and in practice this would have resulted in anyone who wants to participate in the future growth of basis would basically have to buy the tokens from the people that participated in the ico so separate from the specific dynamics of you know why that that model is very clearly less aligned with decentralization over time where the people that participated in the ico now kind of just own own more and more of the system as as things go on green stock was designed in kind of the opposite fashion where instead anybody can create their own stock and seeds just by buying beans and so anybody that owns the stable coin can participate in governance can participate in future senior age uh and accordingly over time the system should become significantly significantly more decentralized now whether you know with without speaking to the specific reasons why the government or white basis shut down uh and and it seems like generally the government uh made it incredibly difficult for them to get comfortable issuing uh or launching the protocol um we kind of took we took what happened to them as all the evidence that we needed to know that you know ultimately beyond this being a really important problem to solve um it's a problem that likely the government is not gonna uh look kindly upon those that are solving it and so that's why we have you know and and not to complain but at you know significant just personal cost in terms of convenience uh to be anonymous it's a huge pain in the ass um we we're really we're trying to do everything in our power to put beanstalk in the absolute best position to succeed uh in in the long term and accordingly designing it from first principles with censorship resistance and decentralization of ownership uh as part of the core economic uh model uh was really an important part of the process here so appreciate you highlighting that tremendously i appreciate your take on it yeah it's um it's certainly core i believe to any strong um can i call you currency can we call you currency is that too soon that's that's the hope so uh yeah i do feel i do feel it's um it's core to the the governance is definitely that decentralized ethos and the fact that it only becomes more and more decentralized over time uh hopefully that will um that will prove um prove out to be the best way forward um i you know it's it's hard to believe that we've gotten this far on centralized currencies um maybe now is the time for some change um one of the things that you did also bring up there was uh jairus had asked you about um going on to other chains now with that it would that intrinsically increase the decentralization in ways that would hopefully i mean if we if we can spread out to other blockchains and create something that has maybe um not only multiple layers of security in that way but also could could it could service the protocol could service multiple currencies in theory why why would you have to be stuck to the dollar does that um so yes there's kind of two different things you point out there to answer the latter um once the credit of beanstalk is viewed as desirable uh and the peg of the usd bean is maintained you're a hundred percent correct that beanstalk can issue sort of arbitrarily pegged assets and so while at launch uh it did seem like a no-brainer to issue a us dollar pegged being given that it seems like there's immense demand for us dollars on different blockchains but not particularly high levels of demand by comparison for other fiat currencies at the moment uh you know that was the starting point but you're 100 correct that beanstalk could issue uh multiple arbitrarily pegged assets you could see a btc bean uh or or an east bean uh where if beanstalk is now on multiple networks and you wanna use an ethereum pegged stable coin beanstalk could issue that for example so a ton of really cool use cases there um but that is a little bit further down the road so we we don't we don't talk about that that much although you're 100 correct that that that's very trivial once the core model works um to speak a little bit more substantively about the cross chain infrastructure so on the one hand there's real benefit to having the network uh be expanded across multiple blockchains and if you can have the beanstalk on different con on different blockchains communicate with one another uh a lot of really amazing use cases open up that other protocols will then be able to leverage beanstalk and the liquidity of beanstalk uh on a variety of other chains and again we try not to to advertise some of the stuff that's a little further down the line um because we just think that's that's maybe not the most respect responsible uh thing to put out there but um there are so so we'll maybe refrain from giving specifics as to different cross-chain use cases we can we can envision but maybe just to speak about the complexity of doing a cross-chain implementation correctly so what we mean by correctly is the goal ethereum is a network that is highly prioritized uh network security and there are networks that make trade-offs in terms of network security or the decentralization of the network um in exchange for throughput or other benefits and you know again we we don't necessarily see the future or we certainly don't see the futures running on one chain and in fact see uh the trade-offs that various trains offer us uh very important to the different uh use cases that they will support but in practice the goal is for beanstalk to uh have a contract of being there to be a beanstalk contract that can issue beans and therefore allow people to deposit their beans in the silo or their assets in the silo on a wide variety of chains and therefore earn protocol native interest on a wide variety of chains the difficulty comes in where you know if you can move beans from ethereum to solana let's call it uh arbitrarily large in size instantly or almost instantaneously um the question then becomes well you know to what extent is if beans on salon if if the solana bean stock is compromised in some capacity um you know how does that affect the other beanstalk and that's where you start to get into the the weeds as to whether the decentralization or the security of the particular network that being stuck is on matters and it certainly does and that will affect the different options that the different beanstalk on the various chains will support now more generally than that even uh the cross chain uh tech that currently exists is well it's very promising and developing quickly um it's certainly not at the place where uh you would hope for it to be yet and so there are still you know there's to be risk not just in terms of the individual blockchains that the beanstalk contracts exist on you're also going to have a bridge specific risk that uh you know especially if the goal is for beanstalk to be a massive d5 protocol where a large portion of the value that is transacting on a given bridge may be beanstalk specific value uh then you start to get into uh well there might actually be uh you know a nothing at stake problem where the the validators supporting the bridge don't actually care about beanstalk so uh there's a lot of complexity there but these are very fun and exciting uh challenges to kind of think through both from a technical and economic perspective and uh in short we think it's all uh really it is feasible uh to do the right way but in order to do it in a way that doesn't compromise the the security of any particular beanstalk implementation on any chain is going to require uh some real thinking so uh that's sort of the status of the cross chain implementation and that's why you know we're not we're not saying that's a month or two away and it's probably something closer to the the second half of this year interesting yeah again a lot to break down there um it sounds like you got a lot of people working for you as well so the the community sounds like they're extremely involved over there which is great to hear um i'm gonna pass it back over to jairus because i'm sure he has a few more questions uh it's coming up to 20 minutes on the hour now um and then we have a question from ernest and a couple of other questions which i think are brewing out there so um yeah jairus back over to you all right thank you thank you all right so being the dj that i am uh the weather is what really attracted me to beanstalk can you explain the weather to our guest please yeah so that's a great question to allow us the opportunity to kind of describe the other half of beanstalk which is the field the decentralized credit facilities so we already talked about the silo so any time there's a an excess of beans in the pool meaning that the price is too too low uh beanstalk derives the price of a bean uh from a time and liquidity weighted average of currently the being ethereum swap pool but soon it will be a variety of different pools that beans trade in and but let's just keep it in the one pool uh scenario now for simplicity so let's say there was a time weighted average uh excess of 100 000 beans in the bean heath pool over the previous season over the previous hour but accordingly in order to return the price to a dollar beanstalk needs to somehow uh remove or incentivize the removal because the protocol itself doesn't do anything uh in terms of market actions typically um the protocol needs to incentivize the removal of a hundred thousand beans from the pool and in fact someone has to purchase the hundred thousand beans from the pool so in order to do that beanstalk issues at the start of the season assuming there's a hundred thousand excess of beans in the pool over the previous season beanstalk will issue a hundred thousand soil soil again playing into the farming metaphor um is the willingness to borrow beans so if there's a hundred thousand soil outstanding beanstalk is willing to borrow a hundred thousand beans uh anyone who has beans can lend beans to beanstalk up to the amount of outstanding soil and so if beanstalk issues a hundred thousand soil if we assume that the system was at some sort of equilibrium where uh all the beans were being used or in the pool or somewhere and that may not be the case there may be people that were holding onto beans to sew them immediately in which case it may take being stocked a couple seasons to issue enough soil to bring the price ultimately back to a dollar but if we assume that there's sufficient demand for the soil someone's gonna buy a hundred thousand beans on the market and lend those beans to beanstalk they're gonna sow in the beanstalk terminology which is lending they're gonna sow the beans in beanstalk so if you take a hundred thousand beans and let them stock uh you receive in exchange pods pods are the debt asset of beanstalk pods and this is this is unique um is pods are paid out on a first in first out basis so every pod that you receive has a place in line and if you lend beans to beanstalk today you get pods at the back of the line and accordingly uh when we talk about incentives this is where there's an incentive to lend beans to beanstalk in an efficient manner because even if you wait a little bit of time for the interest rate to go up which is the weather which we'll talk about in a second um if someone else lends beans to beanstalk before you they get to go in front of you in the line and so this line structure uh is a large driver of the incentives around the decentralized credit facility so let's just uh re-center ourselves so beanstalk issues soil which is the willingness to borrow beans uh anyone can sow beans in the soil in exchange for pods which are the dead asset and so the question becomes well how many pods do you get when you sow beans uh when you lend beans to beanstalk so the interest rate the beans to pods is is the weather at the time that you sell so the weather uh is changed every season by beanstalk uh up or down up to three percent so right now the weather is over five thousand 000 so if you lend one bean to beanstalk you receive uh 50 pods plus one pot because you get your money back so you receive 51 pods plus and the weather is actually higher than that it's like 52 or 5300 so it's it's actually like a 54x right that's insane but the go go ahead and i said that's insane and you know this is actually something that uh was pointed out to us uh recently which is that the fact that the weather uh can increase over time uh particularly when beanstalk needs to attract more demand for debt meaning uh from a peg maintenance perspective if there's insufficient demand for soil the main thing that beanstalk can do is raise the interest rate raise the weather um someone pointed out to us that the fact that uh in certain instances the weather gets higher over time actually offers like a a great opportunity to enter beanstalk sort of after after the initial launch if you will and they were this is someone that was new to beanstalk and they said well it's really interesting that whereas the vast majority of projects it's either you get an early you know sort of what we were talking about in the case of the basis model or you're you're kind of screwed in the case of beanstalk there are actually instances where you can do very well for yourself like a 54x return uh coming in six months six months in after launch if that makes sense and so this is again from a like a core core model perspective the goal is not to re just early adopters the goal is to create a long-term sustainable system that both regularly oscillates the beam price above and below a dollar and can regularly return the debt level of the system if we go back to where we started this conversation talking about uh an excessive debt uh you know beanstalk tries to not just optimize around price stability but also optimizes around a sustainable level of debt if that makes sense that's what i think that is that is brilliant about the protocol that it incentivizes people to buy in to being stuck even when the price is below its one dollar peg and um i have another question regarding seeds and stock so when you deposit beans and you receive seeds in stock um i remember being merchant was telling me that seeds and stock will eventually become liquid that you'll be able to trade it on various marketplaces do you have a time frame for that yeah so the short answer is there's a ton of like back to back to back uh beanstalk improvement proposals of bips that beanstalk farms has been developing over the past month or two that we intend to roll out in the next couple weeks so in the next day or two we hope to propose a bip uh to create a pod marketplace called the farmer's market which will be a decentralized exchange uh for pods um and shortly thereafter we're gonna propose a dip that will uh upgrade the silo uh the beanstalk bank to support uh asset deposits um for multiple different assets so you mentioned the bean three curve uh curve pool for example the silo will start accepting lp tokens for the bean curve pool and once the silo can accept arbitrary lp tokens at that point uh it will make sense to launch uh stock and seeds as erc20 tokens because the and the reason to wait until the silo can accept uh arbitrary tokens is because the there will be a bean stock seed uh most likely balancer pool and uh in short uh you will be able to deposit your bean stock seed balancer lp tokens back in the silo for more stock and seeds to sort of lever up your returns and so once that functionality is in the silo we'll be able to launch stocking seeds to support that wow very interesting um also will there be any trading pairs using bean on exchanges anytime soon yes so currently there's only the being eath uniswap v2 pool and the bean three curve curve pool however uh in the next couple weeks uh we hope that uh or our expectation is that uh there's gonna be the launch of a decentralized three pool with usdv frax and bean um and then we also are uh expecting there to be a bean frax pool that will launch soon and uh there are there are likely going to be a couple other uh perhaps even non-stable coin trading uh that bean trades against for example creator dao uh they've worked with bean stock farms in the past and uh are are launching their own protocol shortly and their creator token uh may very well trade against beans uh as well so the hope is that in the in the not too distant future beans will start to be used uh you know as a medium of exchange in some capacity uh you know and there will be significant bean liquidity across a variety of different assets that's very cool so um exactly how does the price oracle for being stock work so this is actually something that's a little bit abstract in the sense that uh there is no uh protocol native uh oracle um that affects peg maintenance now as different uh protocols integrate with beanstalk and neither need a protocol native t-wop for example uh to support that integration beanstalk will support a variety of different protocol native oracles um for the bean price that different protocols can query for example but in general from a peg maintenance perspective beanstalk really only cares about the time weighted average excess or shortage of beans uh in the pool or pools over the previous season and so when we think about the name of the game is to return the bean price to a dollar uh beanstalk every season just measures uh how many beans uh need to be added or removed in total uh from the liquidity pools in order to return the price for to one so currently uh that oracle uh you know or that that peg maintenance calculation is purely a function of the being eve uniswap v2 pool but will very soon also be generalized to include the beam three curve pool and potentially other okay cool i see that we're almost at hour and i know we have a few questions i would like to get to that so uh yeah we do have a quest a question from um earnest um thoughts on how guild treasuries could diversify with the uh bean stablecoin um so incentivizing members with a non-governance token we could sit on bank for months each season which has a huge opportunity cost so yeah incentives for for incentives for members with a non-governance token so what are your thoughts on guild treasuries and how they could diversify so i'm not quite sure that i understand the question [Music] i would say yeah so so yeah i was trying to um maybe ernest could word in a different way but i think uh it's it's my my take on that is is how could guild treasuries diversify with this token in their treasury um ways that so i think one of the issues that we've been dealing with here at bankless is when people get paid they end up selling bank bank token go down and it's not good for the entire community um so are there ways that beanstalk could be used and just you just mentioned creator dao and so is this is this a good way to create an economy based token um and not have to sell your own governance tokens so in short uh there are if we go back to kind of where we started this conversation which is the the benefits that you get from switching from a collateralized to a credit-based model is that is is are kind of uh innumerable and so creator dao approached us uh asking kind of for a couple different ideas for how they could leverage the beanstalk ecosystem to bootstrap their own governance token and their own uh creator economy if you will kind of exactly what you're suggesting and what what we put together beanstalk farms put together for them was a series of uh four different proposals that have different ways for the creator ecosystem to leverage beans uh that range from holding beans in the treasury and then potentially depositing beans in the silo and earning interest um to uh sort of hosting a fundraiser to raise beans to seed the liquidity for the creator dow token uh there's there's a variety of different uh things that creator dao is thinking about doing uh and leveraging the beanstalk protocol to to kind of bootstrap their own token but in short that inspired us to and it's still in the development phase but beanstalk farms is working on like a beanstalk launch pad that will be a series of different uh factory contracts that make rolling out uh either a fundraiser or a liquidity pool uh really trivial uh and then trying to participate in uh stock and seed allocations and stuff like that the goal is to have that whole process happen in an entirely decentralized fashion so that whole launch pad uh is kind of being designed over the next month let's call it uh but that will also greatly facilitate i think the bootstrapping of different token models and uh and governance tokens specifically as you suggested i like how you touch on charities there um we're currently um working with the olympus give charity setup they have going on with a few different recipient partners popcorn dao is receiving some charity um from them using their yield protocols um so i noticed quite a few correlations um between olympus and and just some of the maths that go on behind the the protocols but obviously there are some huge differences what would you say are some of the biggest differences between um between the bond protocols which we've seen as of late and what you are doing with with beanstalk it sounds like there's possibly a little more complexity when you take the weather into account and the soil um so would you say there are some major differences between it or not not olympus in particular but major differences between what's happening with these bonding protocols and what you're doing with beanstalk so the core difference is that beanstalk as a protocol doesn't have any protocol owned liquidity or any protocol controlled value uh a hundred percent of the assets in beanstalk uh remain at the discretion of uh the different members of the penstock community and they they own them as individuals if that makes sense and they're free to act however they choose and there's no permanent locking of assets in beanstalk with the exception of when you sow beans beanstalk burns those beans and gives you pause and you can never undo that you can't exchange your pots back for beans you can sell the pots on the farmers market which will week but the the core difference is that beanstalk is not accumulating assets um and in practice the functioning of the protocol is designed to be uh a hundred percent autonomous in the sense that the season uh the sunrise function call which starts uh the season at the top of every hour is really the only thing that needs to be called on chain for beanstalk to run and beanstalk offers an incentive uh that increases over time in order to ensure prompt calling of the sunrise function um to anyone that calls the sunrise on the ethereum blockchain and so in practice uh when we talk about the the role of humans and how that is the result of things like pcv um or pol uh in practice beanstalk is really designed to have none of that and not require any sort of human influence whatsoever the calling of the sunrise i really like the way you put that um yeah the in the seasons thing is interesting and um how does it work for your your protocol being on a 24-hour cycle um are there any so it resets for us each day um at a certain time you know 24 hours of the day um are there any other um any other functions in there that work on a yearly basis on a are there any other other time constraints that you're dealing with besides just this one hour seasonal sunrise so the only other uh explicit time kept in the protocol uh is that well there's two uh the governance process takes a week um uh bips beanstalk improvement proposals can be approved with a two-thirds stock super majority in as little as 24 hours um or with a just a normal 50 majority uh after a week a long vote um and then the other time in the protocol is that withdrawals from the silo are frozen for a period of time uh at deployment that was 24 seasons but is now coming down uh basically over the next three months uh down to as low as four seasons uh so the withdrawal freeze and the voting period uh are the only other uh you know meaningful times in the system and then there is an additional mechanism just for completion called a season of plenty in beanstalk and the time trigger until a season of plenty is the same as the withdrawal freeze but um that that may be a conversation for another day that was interesting you mentioned the voting there and there are two times there's a 24 hour and a seven day i believe you said and the quorum goes down the longer so you can have you can push a 50 vote through after seven days oh and uh 24 hours what was it was the number two third super majority after two thirds okay so the quorum goes down over the course of a week um interesting okay um yeah that's uh that's the goal there is to balance like the protocol really shouldn't change um especially if you want to be money and currency you can't change on a whim and so at a minimum and especially you know as the protocol is audited our expectation is that there won't even be any bits that are proposed until the the bip has been audited so there will be a more formal even off-chain process but the goal is you know there should never be a change happening to the protocol in less than 24 hours that that should never be the case and more generally the hope is that you know by allowing a week-long voting period even if there are people within the ecosystem that hold beans but are not necessarily in the silo and owned stock um they will also have the opportunity to temper silo just to participate in governance if that makes sense so the goal is for the governance process to really be all-inclusive within the community and uh still happen in a way that is resistant to any sort of funny business or uh sleight of hand or anything of the sort so uh the hope is to make the protocol really robust to any sort of malicious attempts to change it and therefore you know a 50 majority is necessary to change the and then in certain instances if there's a two-thirds majority uh it can be approved as in as little as 24 hours okay um jairus did you have any further questions um i've got just a couple more things to ask um and then we're not in a rush to to go anywhere so okay perfect i'd want to be conscious of people's time but as long as you've got some time we can we can breeze through a few more things all of my questions were um answered actually um if you have any more questions from your audience go ahead and do that um what just wanted to um so um i wanted to ask this question that um bean merchant and i had been discussing is future plans um do you have anything that is coming up that you'd like to share anything new on the horizon that we can be expecting so i think we highlighted a couple of the the most fun ones which is that the pod marketplace is going to be launching shortly uh and the bm3 curve pool will hopefully be integrated into the silo shortly and that will then open up a variety of other integrations and liquidity pools that beans can you know can be in and in the silo at the same time uh and then stock and seeds will hopefully roll out shortly so this is all going to be back to back to back to back uh over the next couple of weeks and months and uh we will uh we're actually a week away today from the six month anniversary of deployment uh we'll be putting out like a six-month road map a week from today that kind of lays out all of the different uh various developments happening um so i see beanstalk has also posted the faq in the um in the cc chatter um so i do have another question in the audience from birdman uh is a collaboration still in the works with liquidity pool to use l usd which is backed by eth to help support stability of bean yes so once the silo can accept arbitrary lp tokens a b l usd pool is one that is going to very quickly hopefully be spun up and that's something that beanstalk farms uh and liquidy have been working on and so that's another one in the pipeline and kind of just goes to show how many different uh integrations are happening in the near future that something as large as liquidity slipped our mind so uh definitely happening in the near future amazing yeah sounds like there's definitely a lot to look forward to um so what would be the easiest way for somebody in the crowd to um to get involved i see you have single-sided liquidity um and it's easy to just jump in and buy some beans through was that uniswap i saw um so what would uh obviously not financial advice but what would be your um recommendation to somebody who just wanted to get started in an easy way to take advantage of the the yields through your protocol so yeah we definitely will refrain from giving any sort of financial advice but to go back to the core there are two different uh sides to the beanstalk market there's the silo and the field um the field is offering i just checked it's like a 50 almost a 55 x now for sowing peanuts and beanstalk but there's very limited soil at the moment right now you could thousand beans to beanstalk and so um while some people may find that more attractive uh it may be difficult to kind of get your hands on soil uh at the moment um but if if there is soil that that's obviously maybe attractive to some people and then beyond that um you can also deposit beans or lp tokens for the beneath unesco pool in the silo and just for reference the website bean dot money b-e-a-n dot money uh does make uh kind of depositing in the silo or sewing beans in the field uh as simple as possible so you can go straight from ethereum uh into the silo or into the field in a single transaction for example so um if people are interested um we would really encourage you to join our discord uh there's there's a really exciting community forming around beanstalk and uh in short were uh i mean we're we're really thrilled that at the quality of the community that's forming around being stuck because to us you know we don't want the protocol dependent on publius we want uh development to really be happening in a decentralized capacity and that's for us the most exciting thing that's going on is that it really does seem like there's a new and organic community uh forming around beanstalk that is determined to to make the vision we've been discussing today in reality so would encourage everyone to kind of come hang out in the beanstalk discord uh maybe be merchant you could drop a link in the cc chatter so people can obviously pretty easy into that and drop that in there right now um so yeah i think community definitely is what makes a robust platform that's definitely for sure um i don't know if you've mentioned this yet i don't recall hearing you mention the um the pod marketplace is that something um that you could share a bit of knowledge with us sure so within the next i mean i don't want to say it's going to happen today but within the next couple of days uh beanstalk farms will be proposing on chain a bip to implement the farmers market which will be a decentralized exchange for pods which as we mentioned are a unique asset because they're ordered on a first-in first-out basis and so there isn't a real easy way at the moment to exchange pods uh in a decentralized capacity and accordingly there isn't really a lot of liquidity for beanstalk's debt and having a liquid secondary market for debt uh you know if you're familiar with the structure of the current global financial system you know how important uh liquid secondaries are for debt um this is going to be a really big step in the direction towards being stopped becoming a more efficient system uh and obviously given how young it is there's a lot of inefficiency in uh the the part participants in the system and just uh its size is largely a function of that and things like that the pod marketplace or the farmers market as it's being called which will improve the liquidity and the information available to the market uh in terms of how different participants in the uh pricing debt for example that's going to be a great data point for the market to start to to work off of so uh you know the the core model that was deployed six months ago was really uh just the core peg maintenance model and it wasn't perfect uh we were very grateful for the opportunity over the past six months and all the data um to kind of make the necessary tweaks to get the the core model where it needs to be but now we really do think that more or less it has and the goal is to start to add more of the not the bells and whistles but if anything like the the real power engine that's going to take the stock to to there's definitely um a lot on the horizon um and as you were saying there the community over at discord sounds like they are really driving it do you use any other public forums besides discord have you got a forum that you use or would uh recommend any other forms of communication that's one thing we're always trying to slay the coordination beast over here um and communicating is always a challenge do you have any any insights on uh best forms of managing governance doing it all through a chat thread is always a bit of a challenge yeah i think this is something we've experimented with a couple of different things uh like commonwealth for example and ultimately you know we just we originally started building a community on telegram uh and then the community was like you should move to discord uh we've since kind of uh moved away from the telegram uh although it still exists uh it's not quite actively maintained um but the discord there's a beanstalk farm's twitter uh publius we we recently made a twitter account um as well um but the main venue of communication is the discord and we would actually i mean totally agree that there's a lot of difficulties in fiction around discord but uh our community has kind of gone out of their way to and especially over the past week or to restructure the discord to have a lot more um natural flow to it so uh so far we're actually pretty pleased with with how things are going and that that is where most of the chatter happens so would encourage people to come hang out there and you know kind of go from there certainly yeah there is a lot happening in the discords and and the more we can keep them organized um it is it's just a lot easier to to navigate when they're properly maintained we went through this challenge we hit our 250 channel max and had to go through and delete a bunch of channels recently um but i think it's all just a case of trying to um just trying to tweak it as much as as you can along the way uh the same with the governance you know it's all open to change and when the next useful tool comes up then we can migrate over um so yeah i would certainly invite any of the bankless people to go over there and check out how they manage their channels how beanstalk is managing their channels because i've had a look and it's it's very tidy over there um and i would also invite any of the beanstalk people in this uh in this crowd today or listening to this later on down the line come over to bankless and and see how we do things over here if you ever need to get in touch with anyone over here there's just ask for a level 2 and you know they can they can help you get a guest pass or just introduce yourselves and get involved certainly go through the first quest and and see how things are done over here we've put a lot of effort into our onboarding and hopefully it will make it easier for anyone who wants to get involved to just jump in and and start doing things because as a community that the less friction we have the more we can get things done and the more we can focus on what we're here to actually do which is build the future of finance and decentralization and community and and all the rest so yeah it's been absolutely amazing having you over here googly eye and um and bean merchant um bean merchant was there anything you wanted to say to the crowd before we um we jump out what is it you you get up to over in the um in the beanstalk servers hey yeah uh nothing you know too much to add here i thought this was awesome so thank you guys so much for having you know having us over at your discord and yeah definitely welcome to come uh come to beanstalk and check it out i just kind of help with community i i wrote this faq guide which i think is a good introduction for anybody who wants a practical guide to how do i invest how do i get involved and so i've dropped that in the in the cc chatter so check out the guide follow me on twitter there's a cool like bean community on twitter um jaris is you know part of it and we all kind of share updates there so definitely check that out too and yeah i would just say thanks so much for having us it was a ton of fun and we would just maybe we would just maybe add that uh for people that want to learn more um we really do believe in like maximizing the access to the information around being stuck and so we have it's not every week but almost every week we on tuesdays we have either an ama or a class uh where people can just kind of it's similar to an email where people can come ask like as complex or as simple questions as they want um and that happens uh every week on tuesdays so um would definitely encourage people to come and bring their questions there as well brilliant that's um yeah a great place to get involved and uh ask the questions those burning questions that we have um any other uh questions for publius while we have them on stage today or be merchant or for the beanstalk community now's your last chance to get those in while anyone's thinking about that i'm just going to let out a public service announcement first of all i'd like to say that none of this has been financial advice we are not financial advisors and you are more than welcome to do your own research and figure these things out um if you have any questions obviously head on over to the beanstalk servers and there are a ton of people over there who can help you um also if you would like to claim the po app for today if you were in the crowd for more than 10 minutes you are entitled to a co-op we did have djinn running uh if there are any problems and perhaps don't come through i i wish i didn't have to say this but please dm me uh if you have any problems hopefully the degen distribution will work well there is an issue where we're not receiving dms i believe for the po apps so the way to claim your po app is you go into the bot commands channel i'm going to post a link to that into the um into the thread and from bots commands you type forward slash power claim and then it should send you a link um give me about 20 minutes just to get that all wrapped up you know i might have it done in the next five so try then by all means um but yeah again if you have any problems claiming your pull up post in one of the help channels or just send me a dm so is there anything else you'd like to say before we leave publius publius or feed merchant just want to say thank you guys so much for having us this has been a real pleasure uh and you know we would love to have everyone come join the uh participate in in building what we hope is going to be a really impactful of uh the future of d5 and cryptocurrencies so uh thank you everyone for spending the time and uh looking forward to chatting uh more with people uh in our servers and stuff it was an honor to have you on puberty and being merchant i really enjoy your protocol i love the metaphor and i love the inspiration behind it so i look forward to talking to you guys again this is this was amazing thank you for being here publius great to have you all on here um jairus thanks again bean merchant and everybody listening thanks a lot we will see you around the dao see you later thank you for coming guys [Music] you